Dissertation Recording... Opinions needed...

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Hi all,

As I'm an Audio tech student my dissertation is to record 6 songs. But to make things interesting I decided to do it in Linux using only free plug-ins etc etc. I cheated slightly and bought Studio To Go! Which is a bootable Linux CD with all the music application setup for use, the project doesn't include the setting up of Linux. So it all works out of the box and one can install it to their hard drive to make it permanent. It will record to FAT32 so its all win win!

It's suffering a little from pretty bad EQ plug-ins so bare that in mind.

For those who are interested I used-

Delta 1010lt
Soundcraft Spirit SX Mixer
AMD 2600+ 512 DDR
AKG D112 on Kick + Bass
SM57 for snare, vocals + guitar
And some pants drums mics.

any how here they are http://www.skinnylincoln.co.uk/temp/1stDissMasters.zip

Aint No Sunshine
Can't Stop Rockin
All Right Now
Hey Joe
Mississippi Queen
Sweet Home Alabama

It's just the first proper mix and i have heard them so many times i can't count. so i need other peeps to point out things that might need remixing/tweaking. re-recording isn't an option so don't go there :D.

Enjoy

Jack
 
Firstly what a fine guitarist you are. I remember the live concert you sent in and you're easily the best guitarist on these forums.

To my ears the tracks are lifeless and need some heavy EQ and plugin work doing.
The vocals just don't sit right and need some reverb/echo adding to them.

GordyR is the best man for this and I have presets set up for my vocals now which involve echo on about 20ms which thickens the vocal up and a room reverb on a 1.5 sec roll off and the vocals sit much better.

This is the first song I did with those vocal settings and I thought it worked -
Ever Fallen In Love

Mixing down really is the worst part and I go back to mixes over and over again and even when I'm happy after a day I pull them apart.
Put the top ten producers in a studio and they will all come out with something different.

You need GordyR.
 
Thanks Chief!

I'm trying to get the mastering tool working in Linux, it's being a **** at the moment so that may breath some life into it.

Yeah the vocals have been a bit of trouble..i'll see what i can do with some echo, thanks for the tip!

anything else you suggest?

more opinions more than welcome..

Jack
 
I didn't like the guitar sound on Alright Now so a bit of EQ'ing could perhaps do something with it.

Otherwise you just need to experiment a bit more with seperation, reverbs and EQ'ing on everything. Take at least 24 hours rest from it before trying again. Always go back with fresh ears.
 
Sorry to say this, but the vocals sound awful without any effects on them. Try using a chorus&reverb effect.

Without effects you sound like the guy singing the London Underground song.

I send myself nuts trying to decide on the amount of reverb for different songs.
 
I've only got to Mississippi Queen but I think you need to turn the rhythm guitar up on everything so far.

I dunno if you wanted it very quiet but personally I think it's more annoying to barely be able to hear it than not having on there at all, the lead guitar seems to have a good level as well as everything else (maybe the bass a bit hotter).

Good guitaring too :D
 
ElvisFan said:
Sorry to say this, but the vocals sound awful without any effects on them. Try using a chorus&reverb effect.

Without effects you sound like the guy singing the London Underground song.

I send myself nuts trying to decide on the amount of reverb for different songs.

thankfully i'm only the guitarist

my brother the bassist is the singer. there are effects on the voice (compression + a slight EQ to eliminate plosive noises) but i think its in need of a tad more reverb within the mix and maybe better compression. i shall experiment in a few days when i regain the will. :D

on a general note, are you all finding its the vocals needing work? are the drums sounding ok? bass etc etc. It's just that personally i can see the vocal problem but i feel that everything else has a good place in the mix. So says the Alesis Monitors and AKG K240 headphones anyhow..

Tata!

Jack
 
I'm only a singer (who works with backing tracks) so I'm not qualified to assess the individual instruments.

Compression and EQ aren't what I call "effects". My mixer has got 99 different vocal effects. I alternate between no 61 (Chorus & Reverb) and no 76 (Delay & Reverb).

You can EQ and compress all you want, but without the FX the vocals will always sound like that Nizlopi abomination :D
 
ElvisFan said:
Nizlopi abomination

Love Nizlopi, straight out of my home town and my bros other band supported them once or twice.

Esp good at glasto..but i'm aware it a marmite situation with them ;)

edit- there is reverb on the tracks btw, just not done well enough it seems.
 
This is how I mix -
Work on one instrument at a time starting with the drums.
In fact only listen to the bass drum and work on that -> snare -> cymbals/hi hat ->toms and then add them all together.
Turn them off and go for the bass and work on that and do this with every instrument.
Then put them all together and see how it sounds.
 
Just got to listen to this...

Bear in mind that I am a serious pedant when it comes to music...

the guitar is pretty good, leads are mostly accurate with regards to feel/timing although it might benefit from using amp simulator because it sounds a litlle stale (directly recorded)...

The drum performance is too plain and the drumming is slightly dry and formulaic. The singer is holding back a bit - possibly concentrating too much on technihcal parts of the performance to relax.

Other than that its pretty good, and should sound a lot better once its EQd and everything properly... the performances are solid, if a little sterile, the singer has a good range and half of the time lets loose at the right moment. Perhaps you could benefit from playing the instruments... HARDER.
 
First of all... Nice job on the recordings in general.

I have only listened through on my headphones so I can't make much in the way of EQ comments until I have heard them on my monitors. I'll try to have a listen through them tomorrow and get back to you. I only have time to make comments on one song right now.

All Right now:

Guitars... Gotta sort them out mate. I'm kind of struggling to hear exactly what you have on the guitars here since i'm only listening through headphones so I could be way off the mark, but regardless... That riff is legendary so it absolutely has to be killer. I guess it was DI'd so you're going to need to do some major EQ'ing and playing around to get a nice sound in my opinion. The biggest issue is that they are too 'mono' sounding. I know a guitar is a mono instrument etc. but you will rarely, if at all, find a single guitar on it's own panned straight up the middle on a commercial record. Did you use anything to spread it all? If so it needs to be spread more in my opinion. I can hear that there are two guitars there, though i'm finding it difficult to place them in the stereo field through my headphones. The best option would be to double (both of the guitars) or even quad them (record the same thing twice or four times) and then pan them hard left and right to make them sound a lot wider. So you would probably end up with 4 or more tracks of guitars. However you don't have the option of re-recording so you're going to need to double it digitaly.

Pan the guitar to the left and add a stereo delay of about 15-30ms (maybe more just play around). pan the return to the right so that you essentially have a second copy of the guitar playing a few milliseconds later than the original guitar which is panned to the left. Experiment with the ms range until you find something that sounds nice and wide but not too artificial.

Alternatively if you don't have a stereo tap delay just make a digital copy of the guitar track. Pan one left, one right and offset one of them by 15-30 ms manually.

If the guitars still arent 'large' enough then you can quad them up in the same manner. Perhaps try a different EQ for the 'mirrored' guitar to seperate them some more. Also if you have a plugin which can detune an instrument. Try detuning one of the guitars by maybe 6 cents. The idea is to immitate true double-tracking, which is what those guitars need. Keep the lead solo straight down the middle though in mono. But it could really do with some space. Feed it through a stereo reverb with a relatively long pre-delay so that it sounds 'spacious' yet still up front. Hell maybe even try the stereo reverb on the guitar riff also, might widen it out some more. Just don't put too much on, it needs to be gritty sounding not wishy washy. :)

As for EQ on the guitar... again its hard to tell on headphones but you probably need to roll off some low end rumble. Try Rolling off anything below around 70-80hz. It might need a touch of energy in the upper mid's (thought maybe not after you have rolled off the low end) to make it hit you harder so look for a frequency to boost slightly in the 2.5-4khz range with a narrow Q. No more than 2-3db probably. Low mids... Yuk. Typical of a DI'd guitar. Search around 350-400 for something to cut quite drastically. Hopefully a nice wide Q of around 1.0 should be right. When you have got rid of the nasty low-mids you will probably be able to push up the whole guitar without it interfering with everything else. It should sound much more lively.


Okay, bass needs some more compression. Needs to be tighter. I would try really blasting it at something like 7:1 - 9:1, go for a max of -13db gain reduction then push up the makeup volume to get it thumping. Don't set the attack time too fast because with that crazy amount of compression you are going to need to let the transients through or it will sound dead. Start with say 10ms and go up if there isn't enough punch. Bare in mind however that this will depend greatly on the quality of your compressor. A crappy compressor will likely sound pretty awful at these more extreme settings. If you cant get a nice pump no matter what attack time you use then perhaps even try a limiter combined with some more subtle compression.

Hmmm it's actually kind of difficult to 'tell' you what to do as normally I would be trying a thousand different things until it just sounds 'right'. Still maybe this will give you somewhere to start.

Anyway, vocals. I actually think you have the reverb set up okay here. It's subtle so that you can hardly hear it but it still manages to add some space. It definately needs something else though. Try a very small delay. In the range of maybe 20-50 ms. Take the 'dry' signal out of the delay and just 'add' the delayed signal to the original. As you begin to turn up the delayed track you should hear the vocal get thicker. Keep turning it up until you can actually hear the delay itself, and then back it off some so that it isn't noticable. Hopefully it should be enough to just thicken it somewhat. Lead vocals are always being mixed with very little in the way of reverb these days. It's a fashion thing. It's all delays and exciters instead. If you wanted to go for a more authentic sound then I would suggest a touch more reverb. If you want it to sound more 'modern' then stick with what you have and play with delays etc...

Backing vocals. Hmmm could do with some panning in my opinion. Again these would have been better double tracked or even quadded. Most commercial pop records have something stupid like 16 tracks of backing vocals on the chorus. Maybe play around with the fake doubling I described for the guitars. Fake doubling is never going to sound as good as true doubling played/sang by a good tight musician/singer. To my ears fake doubling almost always sounds a little too artifical but you might be able to get away with it. They could do with some more drastic EQ'ing also. They need to be seperated from the lead vocal more than that already are. Hopefully the panning and doubling should be enough, if not then maybe cut a little at 4khz to push them back in to the mix some more.

Drums, personally I would compress them a bit harder to get them more in your face. They sound a tiny bit lifeless as they are. You just need to play around.

I think the biggest single issue is the too 'mono' sounding main guitar riff. I think if you spread that out nicely it should make some mroe space down the middle for the Kick/snare and bass to sit better. Get that sorted and it will be a massive improvement. Everything else is just gravy. :)

EDIT: Actually if you wanted to send me the guitar tracks to 'All Right now' I would happily play around with a quick double/quad, send it back to you so that you can have a listen and then tell you exactly what I did. Obviously I wont go mixing the whole track for you though. It's your dissertation afterall! :p

If you do want to then upload the guitar tracks completely dry and just as mp3's or something. We wont worry about sound quality since it would only be an example.
 
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dmpoole said:
This is how I mix -
Work on one instrument at a time starting with the drums.
In fact only listen to the bass drum and work on that -> snare -> cymbals/hi hat ->toms and then add them all together.
Turn them off and go for the bass and work on that and do this with every instrument.
Then put them all together and see how it sounds.

Agreed 99 out of 100 mixes I would start on the kick drum. Although I normally do it slightly differently after there. I then add in the bass guitar and get the two of them locked together perfectly. They are the backbone of a song and really have to gel perfectly for everything else to work.

Then it's snare time, toms overheads etc. After the overheads I normally find I have to go back and tweak the bass a little since the overheads make up a significant part of the kick drum sound.

After this everything else goes in one by one. The pads (guitars, keyboards whatever) then the lead vocal/backing vocals etc. It's not always this way but for a standard rock song it usually would be for me.
 
Hey thanks for taking the time to write all the tips. ill be trying them out at the weekend when no ones on the house! and then ill post up the results..

i noticed you typed
**
All Right Now:

and then all the tips.
**

Are they aimed at all the songs or just all right now?

Ta!

edit - ill see how i get on with the guitar myself first and if im still strugging then i might take you up on it :D thanks..
 
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skinnyl said:
Are they aimed at all the songs or just all right now?

The pointers I gave you were specifically for "All right now". Different songs will require different EQ, compression, effects simply because different syles of music require different things. For instance in a less 'busy' mix you would need need more in the way of reverb on instruments in order to fill up the space. On a very busy mix you have much less spare room to play with and should use less reverb/delay or it will sound like a huge pile of mush. :)

However most of the tips, particularly about making the guitar wider will apply to the other songs as well. Good luck!

One more thing... Don't mix too loud! Everything sounds great up loud so you won't hear whats wrong in the mix. The frequency spectrum of the ear reacts differently depends on volume level. At high levels of volume the bass and treble are boosted quite dramatically. It's extremely hard to judge compression and EQ at very high volume levels. 83-85db is the optimum volume level for mixing. Mix at that level and your mix should translate better.
 
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I need to go to bed, but i've made some notes and i'll post them up tomorrow. Lots to do IMO br0, but the original recordings dont sound too bad, just sounds a bit lifeless overall. Sweet alabama is the most professional sounding of the lot.
 
Hey all,

i've been experimenting with the tips you gave me Gordy and i have come up with this.

http://www.skinnylincoln.co.uk/temp/AllRightNow.wma

I have quaded the guitars up and put them out enough to give them more beef. Which i think has done it the world of good.

I put a stereo echo on the vocals which i think has improved it a little.

I compressed the drums a little more to make them punch through better.

I haven't really touched the backing vocals yet.

Urgh it was a pain. i never thought i'd want to go back to Cubase but this Linux lark is testing my head esp some of the plugins. each time i want to open a project i have to go through all the EQ plugins, cut + paste them and then turn them on. the reverbs are almost offensive if you turn em up too much almost like the old reverb32 from cubase VST back in the day.

Still it will make for a good log book i can tell you!

Jack
 
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