Downlights in new build help.

[BennyC]

Hi Guys,

I was wondering if any resident electricians would be able to advise me on my situation.

I have a new build due to complete in October. Part of my desired upgrades inclued 33 downlighters throughout the house and 12 waterproof ones (6 in each) in the bathrooms.

The vomit inducing price to have them fitted by the developer comes out at £1650 for the regular downlights and £780 for the waterproof ones. A gob smacking £2430 for about 8-900 worth of materials. Price per unit works out at £50 per regular fitting and £65 per waterproof one (as shown in the upgrades handbook)

I popped on myhammer and have quotes from £1000 upto £1800 for supply and fit. My father used to work in the electrical wholesale business so I know that models & specifications of the downlights will vary grately (voltages, wattage, transformers etc etc)

I'm considering supplying the lights myself and just having someone come and install them and do the wiring however I haven't a clue where to start.

Whether I should be looking at LED? Or standard (halogen is it?) bulbs? There will be standard light fittings in most rooms except the bathrooms so the ones in the bathrooms will need to be reasonably bright to light the room. Also the sales rep said that each of the ones they supply come with their own individual transformer and are fire rates so I'm guessing I require this too so the NHBC will sign the warranty on the house? And it would also be eaiser to replace one unit with a small transformer than have to call a spark out to dig up one larger transformer for them all.

The developer won't be willing to allow me to send my own spark in there during the build to get in the way so the floor upstairs will need removing and then replacing (tongue & groove chipboard most likely, I've been told this might not go back down well?) and also loft insulation will need removing and replacing too with any necessary ventilation room for the lights.

I know I can get this done cheaper than the £2500 I'm being quoted by the developer I just feel a little bit clueless as to what it is I actually want!

What would you be recommending?

Any help would be greatly appreciated,

Thanks

BennyC

 

[BennyC]

By downlighters do you mean spots?

I think my definition they are 'downlighters' but are reffered to as 'spotlights'. The kind that are almost flush with the ceiling.

There is no way that I would pay that sort of price for downlighters.

I'd just tell them to forget it, and you can get it done at a later date.

That's what I plan on doing.

Your whole floor is made of chipboard? :/ Is that standard these days?

Do it yourself afterwards if you're worried about the cash.

Upstairs as far as I'm aware is chipboard. Most developers do this to reduce build costs. Downstairs is concrete. Probably won't be long before they end up making that from chipboard too.

As for the waterproof ones in order to have the NHBC warranty on the build valid they will need to confirm to the new building regulations in place.

I hope it's okay to link to these:

http://www.lightupuk.co.uk/shop/ind...ducts_id=784:a68c7c6d71dceb6c5b0db9dad957a04e

For the bathrooms:

http://www.lightupuk.co.uk/shop/ind...ducts_id=785:6352b4e5ce1949eb3e9653e10c41683e

Is what I'm after, which would be a grand total of £420 excluding any wiring.

 

[BennyC]

I very much doubt youll have to remove the floor boards, you should be able to do it from underneath. Im currently building my own and weve just had the sparks in for first fix. I wouldnt bother with leds either they're not worth it for the extra price.

Kool, thanks, Is it not difficult to run the wiring to the switch in the wall? As I would like to have the 4 at one end of the kitchen on a seperate circuit to the 6 at the other end, along with the standard pendant light fitting on it's own circuit too.

 

[BennyC]

Is the developer letting you put lights in before the plasterer has been?

Doubtful.

The build will have to be 'complete' and signed off post snagging reports & fixes before I'm allowed to start my carpeting/tiling/lighting I would imagine. I will ask though.

Yes. Chipboard sub floor across the joists, then underlay and carpet.

If tiling you can also use a 9mm board on top of the chip board to prevent the rigid subfloor from cracking the tiles. i.e. you want a bit of flex, which the extra layer provides.

Thanks, I'll bare this in mind.

@ OP: Downlighters require a "plant pot" heat shield, if you're putting insulation on top. This needs to be factored in to the price.

Aye, I've seen the 'heat sheilds'. Are these still necessary despite the lights being fire rated? As I though these ones generated less heat and the heat sheild was accounted for in the unit itself.

 

[BennyC]

Benny are they putting the ceiling up aswell?

I should hope so!

I thought halogen downlighters were really inefficient? they tend to blow quite regular and kick out a lot of heat.

I'd certainly look into LED if you Want small spots, but if its not your electric bill its not an issue! not sure what the difference would be price wise, but LED will blow less often an use a lot less juice.

A quick google brings up that there are LED bulbs for halogen fittings. So I'll look in to these. 7 times more expensive (apparently) but last 25 times longer and use much less energy, £19 cheaper per year per bulb, again 'apparently'.

Had another few quotes come in one for a reasonable £35 per light. Preferably if he can have access mid build to lay wiring etc.

These are what I have in mind (hopefully okay to link, not a competitor I hope.)
Standard:
http://www.lightupuk.co.uk/shop/ind...id=783&zenid=c2958bf21ef40c9163e825c52cde7f0e

Splash proof:

http://www.lightupuk.co.uk/shop/ind...id=785&zenid=c2958bf21ef40c9163e825c52cde7f0e

Does anybody know if these will require fire jackets?

 

[BennyC]

Right op I will answer your actual question with real advice! Being a spark and all that.

Putting spots on the top floor will be easy and can be done after the house is signed off, will have to patch up the hole where the pendant was originally, But that isn't much of a problem,

Good, I didn't think upstairs would be much of a problem.

It's on the lower floors where you will have the problem, New builds pretty much always have wayrock (chipboard) flooring, Which when taken up never goes back as it should. So your only real option is to stitch the ceiling from below to get the cables to where they need to be. This will leave you will holes to patch at every point a cable needs to cross a joist.

Patching lots of holes sounds like a lot of work, especially when the downstairs rooms are 19ft long.

The builder will never let you have your own electrician on site.

I didn't think so but it's worth a shot.

I'd ask the building contractor if it's possible for them to 1st fix for the downlighters down stairs and give you a plan where each downlighter should go, Then get someone in after to 2nd fix.

Any other questions, Just ask.

Could you explain what first fix and second fix is in a bit more detail? I'm guessing first fix would be for them to lay cables and just leave a plan as to where they've laid them for?

If ripping up the floor and replacing it is only going to be a couple of hundred quid say £500 then it'd still be £500 cheaper overall £1500 for lighting + £500 for new floor = £2000 so would save almost £500 than getting lighting done by my developer.

 

[BennyC]

Yeah pretty much, 1st fix is getting the cables in place, 2nd fix is fitting the lights, switches, sockets etc.

Your cheapest option would be to stitch the ceiling and get it patched or re skimmed tbh. How many lights are you planning on putting in downstairs?

25 upstairs and 19 downstairs.

How big exactly would the holes left from stitching be or before it's stitched even? Thinking whilst the floors upstairs are bare it might be easier to cut hole in the chipboard floor and then patch these up before underlay and carpet goes down as opposed to re-skimming ceilings?

What annoys me with specing things on new builds is they charge the same price I would but it takes them less than half the time to actually do the job, It will take their electrician about 15-20 minutes to actually get the cables in place, It will take someone upto 2 hours once the celing is up and the floors are down.

If their prices were only a few hundred pounds more than what it'd cost to get it done after the build is complete then I'd just get it done by them to save time and hassle but with almost £1000 to save they can do one.

Edit: I will have to see which way the joists are running if I can get some construction plans.

 

[BennyC]

Not very big tbh. They are only there to get the cable across the joist, As of course you can't drill the joist. about 3inch long by a inch wide. Would be harder drilling the floor as you would have to make sure you drilled the right place. Could end up with loads of holes not needed in the floor. We always stitch the ceiling as it's the quickest and most cost effective option normally

Thanks for that.

Sorry to be a total pain in the ass but how would one go about stitching up the holes?

Screwing a small piece of plasterboard in to the joist to plug the whole and then fill over it and sand it flush?

 

[BennyC]

If I'm unable to get an electrician in or get the developer to first fix cables where I need what would I be looking at roughly cost wise to have ceilings reskimmed?

Can each hole be patched or does the whole thing need redoing? 2 rooms are 19x11ft so about 20sq meters? and then the hall which I would guestimate to be nearer to 10sq meters.