Driving down closed road - endorsable?

squarehead94 · 2 Sep 2023 at 23:46

Hi all, legal boffin question here
Friend of mine has just been stopped driving down a temp road closed road (roadworks closing road for 11 says) the road was still passable obviously.

Now the signage is temporary, just the red banshee signs. No cones or anything. He's not bothered by the fine, it's more the 3 points.

Definitely a long shot but from reading an old PH thread about this, link here:

Road closed signs - Page 2 - Speed, Plod & the Law - PistonHeads UK

Particularly the points of page 2 on the link, by poster ratusratus65:

"That was the basis of my first answer - but as Charlie Two points out, that "road closed" sign might not be one of the signs listed in the schedule of signs for which endorsements can be issued - so it might be an offence, but not endorsable"
and poster Charlie two
"
A person who contravenes, or who uses or permits the use of a vehicle in contravention of, a restriction or prohibition imposed under section 14 of this Act shall be guilty of an offence.
That means breaches fall under the entry in Sch2 RTOA 1988 for S16 RTRA 1984, which states:

Contravention of temporary prohibition or restriction
Tried summarily
Fine Max. Level 3
Disqualification discretionary only if committed in respect of a speed restriction
Endorsement obligatory if committed in respect of a speed restriction
3-6 points or £60/3 point FPN if committed in respect of a speed restriction

So, a ROAD CLOSED sign (which is clearly not a breach of the TRO in respect of the speed restriction) is NOT endorsable"

Now I'm not sure if the above is still correct and accurate given its a 13 year old thread, but is said friend likely to stand any chance appealing with the above in mind? Or just suck it up and take the points?

Thanks
Ps it genuinely isn't me, luckily I was busy today so wasn't working!

On Holiday · 2 Sep 2023 at 23:48

Don't worry about it until there's actually a summons/NIP.

Rroff · 3 Sep 2023 at 00:49

I've no idea as to the legal side of it but I'm getting more and more annoyed with road closures lately, especially ones done due to work by fibre broadband providers, poorly signed, lacking information, less and less consideration given for residents, etc. yet I bet the people involved would be the first ones complaining if the boot was on the other foot.

squarehead94 · 3 Sep 2023 at 01:01

Rroff said:
I've no idea as to the legal side of it but I'm getting more and more annoyed with road closures lately, especially ones done due to work by fibre broadband providers, poorly signed, lacking information, less and less consideration given for residents, etc. yet I bet the people involved would be the first ones complaining if the boot was on the other foot.

It is extremely annoying. Luckily however the detour isn't THAT bad outside of peak hours so I'll know myself not to risk it. Made worse by the fact they could've just put temp lights up as it's only 1 side of the road they are doing any work on.

Uther · 3 Sep 2023 at 07:23

Rroff said:
I've no idea as to the legal side of it but I'm getting more and more annoyed with road closures lately, especially ones done due to work by fibre broadband providers, poorly signed, lacking information, less and less consideration given for residents, etc. yet I bet the people involved would be the first ones complaining if the boot was on the other foot.

I see a lot more road closures these days rather than just blocking off one side at a time. I assume it's a lot more convenient for the 'workers' rather than the residents.
(By workers I mean usually three blokes stood about smoking / on their phones whilst one leans on a shovel)

bainbridge · 3 Sep 2023 at 08:04

I wouldn't take anything in PH as gospel. Half the time there's a big debate with lots of nitpicking and the people doing the arguing have misunderstood the OPs post!

peterwalkley · 3 Sep 2023 at 10:27

Who stopped him ? Police or road workers as that's not clear to me. Was his alternative via diversion possible and/or reasonable ?

There's an 'A' road near me being closed regularly overnight for works to happen, but it stops people living on an estate with ~100 homes from getting in and out so they still have to be able to go through the closure. Through traffic must use the diversion and its only a mile or so added on, so fair enough.

Lopéz · 5 Sep 2023 at 23:35

squarehead94 said:
Hi all, legal boffin question here
Friend of mine has just been stopped driving down a temp road closed road (roadworks closing road for 11 says) the road was still passable obviously.

Now the signage is temporary, just the red banshee signs. No cones or anything. He's not bothered by the fine, it's more the 3 points.

Definitely a long shot but from reading an old PH thread about this, link here:

Road closed signs - Page 2 - Speed, Plod & the Law - PistonHeads UK

Particularly the points of page 2 on the link, by poster ratusratus65:

"That was the basis of my first answer - but as Charlie Two points out, that "road closed" sign might not be one of the signs listed in the schedule of signs for which endorsements can be issued - so it might be an offence, but not endorsable"
and poster Charlie two
"
A person who contravenes, or who uses or permits the use of a vehicle in contravention of, a restriction or prohibition imposed under section 14 of this Act shall be guilty of an offence.
That means breaches fall under the entry in Sch2 RTOA 1988 for S16 RTRA 1984, which states:

Contravention of temporary prohibition or restriction

Tried summarily

Fine Max. Level 3

Disqualification discretionary only if committed in respect of a speed restriction

Endorsement obligatory if committed in respect of a speed restriction

3-6 points or £60/3 point FPN if committed in respect of a speed restriction

So, a ROAD CLOSED sign (which is clearly not a breach of the TRO in respect of the speed restriction) is NOT endorsable"

Now I'm not sure if the above is still correct and accurate given its a 13 year old thread, but is said friend likely to stand any chance appealing with the above in mind? Or just suck it up and take the points?

Thanks
Ps it genuinely isn't me, luckily I was busy today so wasn't working!

This was a very long post but you didn't really explain what happened.

Stopped by whom?
What fine?
What points?

What's actually happened?

Rroff · 6 Sep 2023 at 03:46

I noticed one place where there has been an extended closure due to a wall collapsing which has caused some complaining and people taking matters into their own hands has signs now about CCTV operation and that people will be prosecuted for contravening the closure.

squarehead94 · 6 Sep 2023 at 09:20

Lopéz said:
This was a very long post but you didn't really explain what happened.

Stopped by whom?
What fine?
What points?

What's actually happened?

Apologies I don't get on here much to reply.

Where the road closure is leads on to a roundabout. Plod stopped him as they were coming round the roundabout when he's obviously gone through the road that is closed. Given a green ticket and told to expect a £60 fine & 3 points in the post within 28 days.

stoofa · 6 Sep 2023 at 09:28

Rroff said:
I've no idea as to the legal side of it but I'm getting more and more annoyed with road closures lately, especially ones done due to work by fibre broadband providers, poorly signed, lacking information, less and less consideration given for residents, etc. yet I bet the people involved would be the first ones complaining if the boot was on the other foot.

And I also suspect you wouldn't be whinging if you needed fast broadband.
Infrastructure is kind of a necessity and if that means closing a road for a couple of days to fix, surely that is good for people in general.

tom_e · 6 Sep 2023 at 10:04

stoofa said:
And I also suspect you wouldn't be whinging if you needed fast broadband.
Infrastructure is kind of a necessity and if that means closing a road for a couple of days to fix, surely that is good for people in general.

I don't think Rroff has a problem with road closures, just badly done ones.

Rroff · 6 Sep 2023 at 11:55

stoofa said:
And I also suspect you wouldn't be whinging if you needed fast broadband.
Infrastructure is kind of a necessity and if that means closing a road for a couple of days to fix, surely that is good for people in general.

As above it is badly done ones - for example awhile back Jurassic Fibre (who aren't even connecting up my village) did overnight closures on the road through my village:

No advanced information to residents (when the water company, etc. does closures we get a letter 1-2 weeks before with details). I happened to be aware of the closure because we monitor for road closures in the area at work for our van drivers.

Signs appeared about 30 hours before but were placed badly on a bend making them hard to read, I reviewed my dashcam footage to read them, the information on them was wrong anyway.

They just seemed to assume everyone was at home overnight with no provision for anyone coming or going at night with various drives and footpaths obstructed.

I left before the first closure and came back around 2am to find a solid line of cones across the road just after a bend with no one around to talk to, no signs before the bend, no indication of a closure at the junction where our road leaves the main road, no signed diversion, the other 2 ways to the other side of the closure meant back tracking either 6 or 20 miles and taking a guess at which one allowed residents access - I managed to take a side road and fortunately came out in the middle of where they were working and got them to let me through - though they helped me they obviously found the whole thing hilarious.

The next night a different setup and only able to get access as residents from a different direction, again no information to residents, but fortunately I didn't need to go out that night.

In other places like Wellington and Bridgewater they were fined thousands for similarly badly done closures, but as a small village in the middle of nowhere no one cares.

The internet here isn't great, we are one of I think 4 houses in the village with FTTC and that only manages 30mbit on a good day and can be flaky since a car fire damaged the cables and BT doesn't want to know, we make do supplementing it with 4G but that has its downsides, we aren't on any BT build plans for FTTP and it is up in the air if any alternative provider will come here any time soon.

EDIT: Oh and I phoned the number on the sign for more information and they just quoted me the same vague information as on the one.network site which wasn't helpful at all.