EBD ban.

[dannyjo22]

So how does this ban sit with you?

Myself I find it a very curious change in regulations mid way through the season. Jame Allen write about the Red Bull qualifying advantage due to EBD around july last year IIRC, yet it's taken almost 12 months to decide this is against the regulations.

Why now?

The cynic in me says they have left it long enough for Red Bull to have enough wins on the board so as not to upset them too much but they are hoping that it will atleast make the remaining races tighter without hurting them so much they lose the title.

Why not just say it's banned and refine your car, they pretty much tipped everyone off so they could start working on changes early.

They didn't give Honda such grace when they changed how the cars where checked for fuel.

I personally don't like EBD but they had known about it long enough to have banned it prior to this season. If so they should have banned it before the season started or instantly. It seem very unfair for Red Bull and co and if they have not done anything prior to them looking like they would walk the title they should have left it until the season was ended.

I've said this before on here regards Red Bull, they are better off hiding pace and just winning even if you have a car 2 seconds faster than the field. Otherwise the Fia would just start banning things. The same for anyone when they show dominance, like the Macca 3rd pedal. Yeah it's fine, oh look you have lapped the field, ban!

Either something is illegal and you ban it straight away or as this seems to be a re-interpretation of the rule it should wait until the season end imo.

 

[dannyjo22]

I thought it wasn't getting banned anymore?

http://www.pitpass.com/43905-FIA-confirms-blown-diffuser-ban

Yeah it's a strange one how long it's taking them to decide. So instead of changing the regulation for 2012 they are effectively saying a car that was against the rules or spirit of the rules has won the title for the last two years.

Surely it's less laughable to let it slide this year and rewrite and ban for next year.

 

[dannyjo22]

Nice little piece on Allens website. Seems sort of contradictory. One minute they are saying they think hot blowing is worth 0.5-1sec per lap the next he says it's the DRS wing on the red bull.

Personally I hope the RB still has them beat when they ban EBD. After all Mercedes and Ferrari are doing it as well, so to think they will gain half a second is a bit hopefull I reckon....


Cold blowing – When the driver lifts off the throttle pedal the engine throttles go to 100% and it cuts all the fuel to the spark, so there is no drive from the engine but all the air is flowing through the engine to give about 75% of the exhaust pressure you get on the power. Everyone has been doing this for the last 12 months.

Hot blowing – For the last two or three months this practice has come in. In hot blowing they start to inject some fuel and put a spark into the engine to increase the energy into the gas. So they end up with more downforce. To do that they have to retard the ignition and kill the torque, because if you don’t then the engine is going to create torque and the engine is going to keep going when the driver lifts off the throttle.

The performance gain is around half a second to one second per lap. But this drives fuel consumption up by around 15% and is very hard on engines, so it means costly reliability programmes. This is not the way the FIA wants the sport to go.

The question everyone wants to know is, will this slow the Red Bulls down relative to the opposition?

Renault, Red Bull’s engine supplier, has been working on this technology for longer than the others, but Ferrari and Mercedes are very active in this area too. The majority of Red Bull’s advantage is the power of its DRS wing, which can be used in fast corners and gives it a couple of tenths of a second in qualifying over McLaren in particular and also Ferrari. In the race this advantage goes because the DRS can only be used on a straight and when following another car. Hence why the races are much closer than qualifying.

 

[dannyjo22]

The whole thing stinks. July last year people were writing about EBD. To claim they didn't know the effects is laughable. Typically the FIA wait until a load of people spend money trying to do the same then they ban it.

Just like they were warned about the DD diffuser, did nothing, everyone copies, ban it.

Great money saving ideas, spend and ban.

They obviously initially assumed the speed was coming from the front wing and failed to ban that, this was next. Had Mclaren been 1 sec per lap faster last year they would have banned the f duct as a moveable aero device, which lets face it is far closer to that rule than EBD.

I understand they may now have got their head around what's happening and may not like it. Fair enough that's what 2012 regs can be written for. This could be an advance warning so no one goes and builds 2012 around it and carry on.

If there has ever been a time to sand bag and hide pace in f1 it's now because if you turn up with an invention that put's your car on the front row consistently they will ban it. Get in the lead and sandbag maintaining a 10 second or less gap and fool the FIA into thinking races are close.

I want Vettel to win 12+ races this year even past Silverstone as two fingers up to the goal post movers. That hurt to say it Double the points on the next car please as well.

 

[dannyjo22]

I understand exactly what the engine was doing and it's no more an moveable aero device than the F duct.

 

[dannyjo22]

come on then explain it to me because I don't believe you.

In all honestly what would be the point, I didn't come up with the idea and would just been rewording what I have read happening from Scarbs and Allen wrote a decent piece in it this week. I'm as good as anyone reading technical websites on f1

I'm pretty sure my engineer creditials stand up to understanding how they were blowing the diffuser.

 

[dannyjo22]

I honestly can't agree with you on that.

Fair enough but expand on why you think that?

I might end up agreeing with you

 

[dannyjo22]

Vettel still had the fastest car at canada. Had the race not had safety cars every 5 minutes for stuff out of his control he would have won the race by a mile.

Button was just much faster for one section of the GP due to getting heat in the tyres because of a higher downforce set up gamble that was supposed to be making them faster in the wet.

Monaco they were slower but they were last year too, the nature of the circuit I assume is why a lot of the advantage they have in the car is reduced. It's not unusual for other cars to make the gap look smaller at monaco.

Sadly EBD is banned at Silverstone because on a higher speed circuit I think you would see Vettels advantage hasn't got anywhere.

 

[dannyjo22]

Yeah sorry, I know that I'm just using that as a quicker than saying off throttle blowing being limited. I will change my ways to stop confusion

 

[dannyjo22]

In raw pace, the RBR was no where near the McLaren, where Button was lapping significantly faster than anything that Vettel could manage. In fact, Vettel pushed his car so close to the limit, that he ended up going off the track!

Thats not true at all Button was faster for a small section of the race.

Anyone have a list of the laps the safety car was out and I was do a full lap run down. By as much as Button was catching in the last few laps Vettel was faster laps 5-7 9-19 which were under race conditions IIRC.

I can't find a full list of laps under race conditions.

http://www.aaformula1.com/2011/06/canadian-gp-lap-times-button-vettel.html

 

[dannyjo22]

Okay mate, sorry for biting your head off. But this whole business of everyone saying "EBD is banned from Silverstone!" when it isn't is just getting a tiny bit irritating now!

No problem I understand I've just got in the habit of encompassing the whole thing like the media has as EBD for short

 

[dannyjo22]

Right looking at it quickly the race was run from another website, sorry if I'm out anywhere

Laps 5-8 Vettel was significantly faster 3 ish seconds per lap.

Laps 12-19 Vettel was consistently faster than Button by well over a second, most cases 2 or 3 seconds except lap 16 whree button was about 1.1 sec faster.

Laps 35-38 Again Vettel significantly faster (4 seconds) on lap 36 the other laps had them pitting.

Laps 41-56 Again look at the lap times Button hardly features except being 0.05 faster on lap 45 and then Vettel has him more than beat down until lap 53 where he pits and starts to struggle for heat.

Actually look at the comparison lap times had there not been so many safety cars Vettel would have built such a lead, it's far too premature to conclude the Red Bull pace has been matched. One bad stint getting heat in the tyres.

Look at those laps stated in this link Sunama and tell me Vettel didn't have him for pace except for a heat issue on slicks, the gap is huge for most of the race....

http://www.aaformula1.com/2011/06/canadian-gp-lap-times-button-vettel.html

 

[dannyjo22]

So basically you are wrong and Vettel did have the legs on Button but now we bring traffic into the equation. So the multiple laps Button was 2 or more seconds off Vettels pace was because of traffic?

As I said that doesn't matter because it's not Vettels fault at the front while Button was in the midfield. Had the race been run without safety cars Vettels lap pace shows he would still have won the race, he was pulling out consistentyl faster laps than Button until the slicks.

Not only that only 38 or so laps where at race pace, in racing conditions for 60 odd laps that gap would have been bigger.

Your statement was Red Bull are no longer the fastest car in race trim, you come to that conclusion through two races and only when Button was on slicks was he faster than Vettel. We know why that was though, a bit of luck that the setting they had for the rain actually helped in the drying conditions. It's not like he was actually faster in the wet, no Vettel was consistently over 2 seconds per lap faster than him.

It's laughable to think that's traffic.

I hope Valencia is dry so we can see Button beating Vettel for pace as the red bull is now the third fastest car in your eyes. So we should see the Red Bulls mashed for pace.

Personally I think you have read far too much into Monaco and a wet race and Red Bulls demise far too prematurely.

 

[dannyjo22]

He was faster for one section of the GP. He was slower for longer periods of the gp than he was faster than vettel, the lap times bear that out. Any advantage vettel had was lost each time under a safety car. He doesn't get free pitstop under a safety car, he still loses time, I'd bet they would much rather have not had the safety cars and kept extending that gap to button.

He won the race because the field got bunched up multiple times. Vettel was faster than him through all but about 2 of the laps up until button went to slicks. Even though he was carrying more downforce than Vettel he couldn't match him on wets or inters.

Button was not a worry for the pace of the Red Bull until that stint on slicks, he got lucky very lucky. He did well to pass and the race was edge of the seat but he backed into it. He wasn't a match for either his team mate or the red bull until the slicks.

Besides lets stop debating it in here, lets see what happens at Valencia because after all Red Bull are the third fastest car now. No doubt as usual you will flip flop on that statement.

Just for the record which car is the fastest now Mclaren or Ferrari? Just so I have the right order for who will win.

 

[dannyjo22]

Like this little plan



http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92494

Expect this to reverse by the end of the day.

So basically they don't think off throttle use of blown diffusers banning (phew there you go JRS ) is going to affect Red Bull enough so now it's engine maps as well.

By Hungary I expect they will ban any driver with a surname starting with V.

Pathetic attempts to stop a hungary championship win happening.

None of this is new to them, they have known it's happening but can't wait until the end of the season or nail it down at the start of the season.

 

[dannyjo22]

I think I will call it OTBD from now on

 

[dannyjo22]

I personally feel if the FIA want to change the goal posts mid season they should offer up a test session prior to the race where it happens.

I will laugh from silverstone to xmas if Red Bulls race pace in relation to the rest causes a bigger gap, so instead of scoring 1st and where ever Webbers been finishing they start locking down 1st and 2nd every race.

 

[dannyjo22]

Hoping this finally gets rid of RBR's advantage.

Really, that's how you want to see Red Bull get beaten? Keep changing the rules into you get them. They didn't break any rules, they built a car within the rules by spending money to develope a car. They have too much of an advantage so change the rules.

This isn't suppose to be Wrestling.

What about all this cost cutting that they are supposed to be doing. This is hardly going to be cheap.

If this was happening to mclaren people on here would be in uproar. Funny how they can leave the F duct alone and double decker diffuser until the end of the season but this get's tackled now.

 

[dannyjo22]

Hang on.

Theres a fundamental thing that has been missed here. I thought parc ferme rules meant you couldn't make any major chances to a cars setup at all between the start of qualifying and the start of the race?.

Pure guesswork because I'm not totally upto what they are allowed to do with the ECU maps but I'm guessing they aren't touching it in parc ferme. Run the Qualifying lap on setting no1 selected on the steering wheel for example and switch it to the race setting on the in lap?

It's must be selectable from the steering wheel because Brawn had that special setting radio call and didn't he say that was a map for a certain cicumstance?

Isn't the map then locked for a certain number of laps on the start so they don't run a special setting for launch control?

So it can't be a loophole if they already had a ruling locking you into a map for the start of a gp??

 

[dannyjo22]

Like many ideas before it, it was very clever, but now the FIA have decided it is against the rules. Hard luck really.

It's not hard luck, it's try to influence the outcome of the result. Lets say Mclaren next year develope a perfectly legal part that gives them 50% better fuel economy. The FIA allow the method until Mclaren is leading the title by 100 points. Then they decide it's still not illegal but they change the rules to make it illegal.

That's not hard luck, thats re-writing the rules to suit. Whats the point of developing anything that gives you an advantage if it gets taken away from you if you are dominant.

F1 might as well become a single spec series.

It will be interesting to see the impact on RBR following this. If they suddenly lose all of their pace, it will certainly throw last years championship into question.

I really dislike the FIA, they make up the rules as they feel like it.

How does it impact last years title or even this years. They haven't broken any rules, they haven't been caught cheating. The rule book has changed to make it illegal. Just the same as the DD diffuser was banned at the end of 09 it didn't mean it impacted on the legitamacy of the Brawn world championships.

I find it harder to accept a title now won by someone else, as they banned something previously legal to try to change the outcome.

Trying to rig the results.