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Enabling fTPM can cause stuttering on some Ryzen systems

Associate
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Couldn't see a thread for this (apologies if there is) but the more exposure the better. You won't know if you have it unless you have fTPM enabled (so likely 1.2.0.3 Patch C or higher AGESA which had it enabled by default in prep for Windows 11 installations).

Some examples of what it looks like:





The main thread on the subject is here: https://linustechtips.com/topic/1353904-amd-ftpm-causing-random-stuttering/

There is also a 56 page discussion on the Lenovo forums for its laptops suffering the issue: https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Gaming-Laptops/Legion-5P-15ARH05H-micro-stutters/m-p/5067079?page=1

Below I will try to give some info that I know to be correct:

1: Disabling fTPM fixes the issue completely.

2: People originally said buying a physical TPM also fixed it but then reports days later says it still happens.

3: The frequency can vary. People can go days without a stutter but unless fTPM is disabled it will happen. Usually they say 1-2 stutters a day.

4: There has been some massive confusion about how to disable fTPM from people saying "My ASUS BIOS doesn't allow it". This is simply not true. Every board manufacturer to my knowledge allows TPM to be disabled. For ASUS you go to Advanced > Trusted Computing > Security Device Support > Set to Disable. You do not actually have to be in the AMD fTPM configuration menu at all (which is where the confusion has arisen).

5: At first people were blaming Microsoft but as more users had the issue they also stated it happens on Linux. Putting the issue either in the hands of AMD or board manufacturers.

6: ASUS seems to be the most effected by this (but it is likely the most popular brand so hard to say). I've read reports from every brand.

7: Right now it's 50/50 on if this is a CPU hardware fault or software fault. The most damning evidence was something I found on the guru3d forums to support a faulty CPU:

"the forced/default tpm config in the latest bios is exposing it because of periodic validation colliding with a correctable bus error, which Ryzen cpu's have higher than the industry average of. since the ftpm fires a locking interrupt IO delays until the interrupt service succeeds."

Nobody else has a fix besides disabling fTPM (now no periodic validation will happen) so it doesn't show the hardware issue (giving credibility to this evaluation). However, a user that posted one of the above videos said he tried 3 different Ryzen CPUs in the same board and all had the same issue. It would be very unlucky to have 3 faulty CPUs.

8: Installing and running Windows 11 is still possible. You enable fTPM to install Windows 11 and after install, go into BIOS and disable it again. Updates still work. However, Valorant on Windows 11 will then not work as it requires TPM to be enabled.
 
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Caporegime
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Interesting, i'm running Win 11, obviously with fTPM on.

I'm running 1.2.0.4A, so newer than 1.2.0.3C but even the BIOS i'm running is pretty old, it was released on the 01'st of November last year, the latest AGESA is 1.2.0.5. the BIOS in question here is 10 months old, that's pre-Windows 11.

This stuttering in news to me, and i see it in the videos, its definitely there but i have never experienced it, why are these guys running nearly year old BIOSes on Windows 11?

My last stream, more than an hour of immaculately smooth game play.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1282746847

I think maybe the answer is, update your BIOS if you're running Windows 11?
 
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Caporegime
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They really do ^^^^

Interesting, i'm running Win 11, obviously with fTPM on.

I'm running 1.2.0.4A, so newer than 1.2.0.3C but even the BIOS i'm running is pretty old, it was released on the 01'st of November last year, the latest AGESA is 1.2.0.5. the BIOS in question here is 10 months old, that's pre-Windows 11.

This stuttering in news to me, and i see it in the videos, its definitely there but i have never experienced it, why are these guys running nearly year old BIOSes on Windows 11?

My last stream, more than an hour of immaculately smooth game play.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1282746847

I think maybe the answer is, update your BIOS if you're running Windows 11?

From the Linus forum

On 10/20/2021 at 7:45 AM, ShockSA said:


using the latest bios with AGESA ComboV2 1.2.0.4 A completely eliminated the stutters for me.

Others are saying the problem persists with a later BIOS.

Strange one, but one shouldn't be running a pre-windows 11 BIOS with Windows 11. The advice was superficially update the BIOS for Windows 11.
 
Caporegime
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Anyone know how something like ftpm can cause this kind of issue ?


No idea but i have yet to see anyone complaining about this on B550 boards, its seems to be primarily Asus X570, And one or two MSI and Gigabyte X570, no where near as prevalent as Asus.

B550 are much newer boards than X570, so i'm wondering if some boards were developed before they had Windows 11 in mind. A lot of X570 boards are more than 2 years old, closer to 3, they launched in June 2019.
 
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Haven't seen that at all so far with fTPM enabled on an Asus X570 Formula (latest 3904 BIOS), 5950x and Windows 11 and I've had fTPM enabled since Windows 11 launched.
 
Associate
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I have some theories about why it happens but trying to get people to test it is proving a problem. People are either happy with just disbaling fTPM or don't want to change a working system which I understand.

The first question is, why does it happen to some people and not others? I stumbled upon a thread on the MS forums about a certificate URL issue that happens with AMD fTPM: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/an...ent-id-86.html?page=1&pageSize=10&sort=oldest and a related reddit thread about securing hardware with fTPM: https://www.reddit.com/r/Intune/comments/qiejcb/amd_ftpm_problem_with_autopilot_preprovisioning/

This seems to happen with systems experiencing the stutter. What I think is happening: The system periodically checks for the certificate but since it can't get a response from the server, it hangs that process for a second and that causes the stutter until it fails. Would explain why no fTPM = no stutter. No check has to happen.

It could just be something as simple as different router firewalls are stopping the requests to/from the servers or it's more kind on different NICs who knows. Actually while I have you here @Raiden85 you could easily prove/disprove that NIC idea. Whichever NIC you use on your Formula, can you try the other for awhile and see what happens for a couple days? Think of it as helping mankind. :D

Anyway, it might be fixed already. I say might because that Microsoft thread said the certificate fix was included in a Windows 11 dev build from November 15th 2021. That should mean if my idea is correct, whenever these insider preview/dev builds get global roll outs for the general public it's all fixed... fingers crossed. By that I mean if the system doesn't complain about certificates erroring out then the check can't time out and fail, thus no stutter.

As said at the start trying to get people to install a dev build of Windows 11 for an already working system with fTPM disabled to test a theory from someone on the internet isn't easy.

I'm probably like totally wrong but eventually if you keep throwing shots out you'll land one.
 
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fTMP got automatically enabled for me with last BIOS update 3-4 months ago. Have not noticed any stuttering, usually quite sensitive to it
windows 10
 
Man of Honour
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This seems to happen with systems experiencing the stutter. What I think is happening: The system periodically checks for the certificate but since it can't get a response from the server, it hangs that process for a second and that causes the stutter until it fails. Would explain why no fTPM = no stutter. No check has to happen.

I've seen similar behaviour from the malware protection engine in 10/11 where it gets itself in a state constantly going through a loop of trying to update heuristics and failing which causes background stutter due to CPU use so wouldn't surprise me.
 
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Well what do you know, I just checked my bios on my ASUS Strix 570 Gaming F (one of the boards most affected) and I have it all enabled as well, running windows 10 and the latest bios and haven't noticed any stutter whatsoever, I guess I will see when I eventually upgrade to windows 11.
 
Soldato
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I could swear this exact stuttering also happened to me sometimes (rare) even when the fTPM was disabled, although much more often with the fTPM enabled. Since switching in November to a wired Turtle Beach Recon XBOX controller from a wireless XBOX 360 controller the problem seems to have gone away even with fTPM enabled. Perhaps it's another facet of the AMD USB problems and enabling fTPM merely increases the frequency of the stutter rather than being responsible for it.

AMD Ryzen 3900X
Gigabyte X570 Aorus Master BIOS F34
Crucial Ballistix DDR 4 3600MHz RAM, 32GB
Nvidia 3080 FE but happened on GTX 1080 too
It happened on Windows 10 64 bit Pro, it hasn't happened yet on Windows 11 but I switched the controller months before switching OS.

Some games which had the problem:
Forza Horizon 5, RDR 2 and Mafia Definitive Edition.

Doom Eternal definitely didn't and seemingly neither did Forza Horizon 4 which is surprising considering the sequel did.
 
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I had this issue. I turned this on for Windows 11, did not like look of 11, but left FTPM on in BIOS. And guess what mysterious stuttering in desktop and gaming.

I changed power supply (thought it was power related), changed my RAM to a faster kit (helped a bit). checked CPU for broken pins (it was fine), and was considering an RMA for my MSI RTX 3070...Oh and thought it might have been my 10 year old Creative Sound Blaster Z soundcard.

Since I turned FTPM off system has been fine. I am glad this thread exists because I thought I was imagining something was up with my PC. In fact it is just a terrible implementation of FTPM on AMD systems...
 
Man of Honour
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I don't understand why anyone would want to enable TPM - aside from this issue it is actively hostile to the end user and does not provide and/or there are better ways to provide the touted security from malware, etc. for the end user.
 
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