Evolution

[shifty_uk]

Hi guys,

I was just reading the "turning christianity into a crime" thread, and seen evolution being mentioned.

I admit that I don't know everything there is to know about evolution, I just know the basics and I believe it. I believe because I don't see any other way that man could have been created.

The thing that I'm curious about is, are we still evolving? Why havent we changed all that much in the last couple of thousands of years? Or have we? What will we be like in the future? (that is, if global warming doesn't destroy us)

 

[Treefrog]

Hi guys,

I was just reading the "turning christianity into a crime" thread, and seen evolution being mentioned.

I admit that I don't know everything there is to know about evolution, I just know the basics and I believe it. I believe because I don't see any other way that man could have been created.

The thing that I'm curious about is, are we still evolving? Why havent we changed all that much in the last couple of thousands of years? Or have we? What will we be like in the future? (that is, if global warming doesn't destroy us)

I think we're devolving - breeding genetic defects back into the general population. Although no-one is seriously going to suggest eugenics, a few more of the fittest surviving wouldn't harm us as a species.

 

[Visage]

Hi guys,

I was just reading the "turning christianity into a crime" thread, and seen evolution being mentioned.

I admit that I don't know everything there is to know about evolution, I just know the basics and I believe it. I believe because I don't see any other way that man could have been created.

The thing that I'm curious about is, are we still evolving? Why havent we changed all that much in the last couple of thousands of years? Or have we? What will we be like in the future? (that is, if global warming doesn't destroy us)

I think evolution occurs on timescales that are far too long for us to notice. Also, only changes that offer a distinct survival advantage 'take root'. We're so mollycoddled in modern life that this is quite rare nowadays.

 

[Raikiri]

Evolution really doesn't happen over a 'couple' of thousand years and usually comes about because of necessity. In 20,000 years or so there may be small diferences but like I said, we don't need to change to survive so we probably won't. Survival of the fittest, as most people survive when they would not have 10k year ago even with defects such as bad eyesight etc. it is more likely we would devolve to some extent

Edit: Damn it - beaten!

 

[FTM]

yes we are still evolving...people are generally bigger/taller than even 3 or 400 years ago..let alone 10 thousand years ago

average weight and height is increasing for both men and women

but it so hard to tell because of the immense time spans involved..it hurts my brain to think how long creatures have been evolving on this planet

 

[Visage]

yes we are still evolving...people are generally bigger/taller than even 3 or 400 years ago..let alone 10 thousand years ago

average weight and height is increasing for both men and women

Thoise changes are more down to lifestyle changes, like improved diet, for example.

 

[AJUK]

yes we are still evolving...people are generally bigger/taller than even 3 or 400 years ago..let alone 10 thousand years ago

average weight and height is increasing for both men and women

but it so hard to tell because of the immense time spans involved..it hurts my brain to think how long creatures have been evolving on this planet

The increase in physical stature in the last few hundreds years is more than likely attributable to a much better diet allowing our species to reach their full potential rather than an evolutionary trend.

I actually think in some ways we are devolving and becoming a weak species. Our reliance on technology has divorced us from our natural habitats and, unless your name is Ray Mears, most of us would be totally helpless if we were placed back in it. It is our technology that makes us dominant, not our bodies, although it has always been that way with humans so that could be argued to be the result of evolution of our species.

My sig says it all really.

 

[AmaTeX]

Yes we live longer but this is down to medical science one thing that is important to realise is that our genetic evolution is aided by our technical ability. We live longer thus give use more experiences and more chance for genetic memory to take hold.

Im sure there are other situations where evolution is enhanced by our ability and indeed may even be held back.

 

[Visage]

Yes we live longer but this is down to medical science one thing that is important to realise is that our genetic evolution is aided by our technical ability. We live longer thus give use more experiences and more chance for genetic memory to take hold.

Im sure there are other situations where evolution is enhanced by our ability and indeed may even be held back.

Genetic memory? What do you mean by that?

 

[A.N.Other]

We live longer thus give use more experiences and more chance for genetic memory to take hold.

There is no such thing. DNA doesn't work like that - it is 'programmed' at fertilisation and will be the same when you die. Likewise, people are saying 'de-evolving' - being picky - there is no such thing. Evolution is a random process driven by natural selection, it has no goal and no path and can quite easily go backwards (as we see it).

To the OP - there is no real answer. Yes, we are evolving, in that we are gaining natural imunities to diseases etc through advantageous mutations in DNA (as are all organisms all of the time). However, the main thrust of evolution - natural selection - is being hindered by the fact that the weakest no longer die or reproduce any less successfully than the healthy. This means that as most people see it, we aren't going to be evolving significantly until something comes along to disturb this balance.

 

[neocon]

Human beings are a dead end!

 

[Brizzles]

I'm noticing fewer and fewer Gingas around.

Perhaps we are still Evolving.

 

[Visage]

I'm noticing fewer and fewer Gingas around.

Perhaps we are still Evolving.

We can only hope....

 

[AmaTeX]

There is no such thing. DNA doesn't work like that - it is 'programmed' at fertilisation and will be the same when you die. Likewise, people are saying 'de-evolving' - being picky - there is no such thing. Evolution is a random process driven by natural selection, it has no goal and no path and can quite easily go backwards (as we see it).

You can’t just say there is no such thing without conclusive evidence, I agree that DNA doesn’t work like that as we understand it but we don’t really understand a lot about most things.

Genetic memory is basically significant events in your life that are recorded and passed on to your descendants as a hardwired trait. Bees communicate through dance, how does a bee know to dance in such a way to communicate with its fellow bees?

EDIT: Also pheasants run for cover when they see a buzzard over head, they have never even seen one before but don’t flinch at a seagull or 747.

On a similar note organs have a capacity for memories such as the heart, some people after heart transplants have dramatically altered there lives and end up doing things that there donor did.

 

[A.N.Other]

Genetic memory is basically significant events in your life that are recorded and passed on to your descendants as a hardwired trait. Bees communicate through dance, how does a bee know to dance in such a way to communicate with its fellow bees?

Seriously dude - no such thing. Mutations etc that occur to germ cells (i.e. testes / ovaries) are the only changes in DNA that are passed on to the next generation. All other mutations are lost when the organism dies. Bees communicate because, as you say it is hard-wired, there is no way this can change through events in the bee's life.

When evolution was first being 'discovered', there were two theories - natural selection and the argument of nurture (what your talking about). The other theory was very quickly dismissed - you can paint a baby blue the second it is born and keep it blue for its whole life; this doesn't mean that any offspring it has will also be blue.

// EDIT // All behaviour of animals that do not have the ability to pre-meditate (e.g. dolphins, humans) is simply the result of a stimulus. Stimulus from animal 1 --> Response in no.2 (is a stimulus for 1) --> Response in 1 (is a stimulus for 2) etc etc. I agree with your point that this is written into DNA as a 'memory' but there is no way that this can be changed.

 

[[DOD]Asprilla]

I think we're devolving - breeding genetic defects back into the general population.

Defects are the source of evoulution.

An animal is born with a defect that gives them advantage over another, hence that person is more successful, their kids will probably be more successful. It's still a defect.

Evolution really doesn't happen over a 'couple' of thousand years and usually comes about because of necessity.

Evolution doesn't come about because of necessity, that's a common misconception. Defects are random; some help and some don't and it's completely abitary which ones will occur and whether they will be useful at that time.

In some cases, like a drought, there is a chance that a defect that allows the animal to preserve water will be created in one or some of the animals allowing that animal and it's progeny a better chance of survival. However, there is also a chance that it won't happen.

Equally that defect could occur during a time when water is plentiful and it will have no impact what so ever (or even a negative impact) and it will then be bred out though successive crossbreeding generations, although it may resurfice again later.

Evolution is as random as it gets.

 

[AmaTeX]

No but you can electrocute a flat worm each time a light is switch on forcing it to curl up, cut it in half and let each end grow a new tail/head and switch the light on again and both new organism will curl up.

I’m not trying to say it physically changes the dna in the animal that experienced it, im saying it will be recorded and added/altered into the progeny dna.

 

[A.N.Other]

No but you can electrocute a flat worm each time a light is switch on forcing it to curl up, cut it in half and let each end grow a new tail/head and switch the light on again and both new organism will curl up.

We wont agree on this but at least keep an open mind.

This is simply a basic form of habituation. If the second half did survive (normally, they don't) then this characteristic will be displayed bacuase it is effectively the same organism. If the flatworm were to breed, the next generation would not do this. Also, all habituation in animals of this level lasts only momentarily (say a few hours) - if the flatworm were left, it would soon not curl up to the stimulus of only the light. What I'm trying to say is that it is not stored in any way long-term.

 

[jezsoup]

No but you can electrocute a flat worm each time a light is switch on forcing it to curl up, cut it in half and let each end grow a new tail/head and switch the light on again and both new organism will curl up.

I’m not trying to say it physically changes the dna in the animal that experienced it, im saying it will be recorded and added/altered into the progeny dna.

isnt the curling up more of a physical reaction, like you shine a brignt light in someones eyes, it hurts, the close their eyes?

 

[A.N.Other]

I’m not trying to say it physically changes the dna in the animal that experienced it, im saying it will be recorded and added/altered into the progeny dna.

Biologically absurd. How long would our DNA be if this happened?