F1 - Then vs. Now

[JRS]

Just for Skeeter, since he seems to feel quite strongly about keeping stuff like this out of race weekend threads:

Any chance we can create a "F1 should be like it was in 'the old days'" thread and keep all chat about how modern F1 is rubbish compared to <insert decade here> in there? It would make reading the modern F1 threads actually bearable and worth the effort as they wouldn't be routinely trashed by arguments about by gone eras?

I would rather read race comments and lol driver discussions relevant to that race than wade through yet another argument that F1 from X decade was better and modern F1 is rubbish.

I am actually surprised half the people in these threads bother to watch modern F1 if its clearly so inferior to their 'good old years'.

First things first - my position:

The last season that I really found myself bored by was 2008. Several reasons for this - the Lewis-teria displayed by people on here and by the ITV commentary team, the on-track action at the front of the field being mostly sub-par, and fact that F1 was still persisting with grooved tyres along with the cars having reached the peak of their over-winged phase. I didn't even bother watching the final race live. When I saw it later, I thought it was blatantly obvious that Hamilton would get through to win the title - judging by the commentary on here, I was in a minority. Hey ho.

Then 2009 rolled around, and almost everything improved. Slick tyres back, reduced aero, much better commentary (yes, even taking Legard into account) and broadcasting, and I remembered why I've been watching F1 for so long. It was enjoyable again.

So F1 now is perfect then?

Not even nearly.

For starters, F1 is supposed to showcase automotive and racing technology. There are diesel rep-mobiles with more technology in their chassis than in a Formula One car these days. I'm not saying that I want to see ABS or fully automatic gearchanges and the like back. In fact, I'd rather that they went back to a proper H-pattern shifter for the gearbox since that would bring back a skill that was lost in the early '90s. But I would like to see active ride back, in conjunction with a ground effect floor design. And actually, now that we have common ECUs in the cars it might be time to look at traction control again, and see if it can be reintroduced in a form that still allows the cars some slip (i.e. how it used to work before the systems were perfected!).

There are other things, too. The front wings are still far too fussy, the cars still far too dependent on them. KERS at present is nothing more than a push-to-pass button that doesn't always work (or a push-to-defend button that is completely negated by the DRS). I hate the fact that engine configurations are locked to V8s. And I hate the inconsistency (and sometimes blatant stupidity) of the race stewards and FIA.

So what could we have back, really?

Not much. The world has changed, and stuff that makes motor racing exciting also can make it dangerous. No-one wants to go back to the days where there was a very real chance of more than one driver not making it to the end of the season without having a career-ending injury or getting killed.

The costs have escalated as well, and there's much less incentive for sponsors to pay for it all. In an effort to promote competitive racing, the FIA have blocked many avenues of development that could have real world applications one day so the motor manufacturers really aren't all that interested in lobbing money at it.

And yet....wouldn't it be great if F1 2011 was a bit more like F1 1991? There was a mix of V8s, V10s and V12s on the grid. Some of the cars sported such exotic details as active ride. The aero bits weren't as complex as a degree-level mathematics textbook. There were 19 teams trying to qualify at each race. Eight different engine manufacturers involved, some with more than one design in the field. 41 drivers would show up over the course of the 16 race season. And you had to do something really bad to get yourself DQ'd or penalised, not just a bit of gentle moving around on-track.

People like F1 as it is. That's fine. I'm enjoying this season so far as well. But there are a few things that I did prefer from 'back in the day', and it's a shame that we can't have some of them back with us.

 

[JRS]

snip

Ban front wings, allow ground-effect floors, limit rear wing to single element, let teams go with whatever weight balance front:rear they need. Job done. Don't need to make it a spec series to limit aero push issues. In fact, some of the worst offenders for aero-induced understeer are spec-bodywork series.

The FIA clamped down on the spending on engines by introducing the homologation rule. In theory, not a completely hideous idea - stops power levels getting out of hand, makes teams aim for reliability, thus reducing costs. In practice, it means that teams spend enough money to start a small nuclear war (or a truly vast ordinary war) on fiddly little aero pieces, which leads to problems with dirty air, and we're back to aero push. In addition, it means that there's very little incentive for motor manufacturers to get involved in making engines for the formula.

We're now down to four engines in F1:

1) Ferrari 056 V8
2) Mercedes FO 108Y V8
3) Renault RS27-2011 V8
4) Cosworth CA2011 V8

Yet you go back ten years, and the situation is a bit different:

1) Honda RA121E V12
2) Honda 101E V10
3) Renault RS3 V10
4) Yamaha OX99 V12
5) Porsche 3512 V12
6) Ford Cosworth DFR V8
7) Judd EV V8
8) Ilmor 2175 V10
9) Ford HB5 V8
10) Judd GV V8
11) Ferrari 037 V12
12) Ford HB4 V8
13) Lamborghini 3512 V12

No-one can think that this is a good thing, right?

A GP car these days sounds utterly awesome, make no mistake. The only thing that sounds even more awesome is a Top Fuel dragster (seriously, if you ever get a chance - see how long you can stand in-between a couple of them in the paddock getting revved up!). But the only variation you get now is if one has a stupid exhaust setup. A decade ago, you had some very distinct sounds on the grid. Growling V8s. Screaming V10s. Howling V12s. And you could easily hear the difference between, say, a Judd V8 and a Cossie V8 as well.

 

[JRS]

Am i being ignorant or is Ground effect not a form of Aero anyways?

It is, but it's much less sensitive to dirty air. The idea is to stop the cars from washing out into understeer when they try and follow another one closely through a medium-to-high speed turn. Then they'd be close enough to get into the slipstream and be in with a chance of overtaking without a flappy rear wing than can only be used in specific scenarios at the say-so of Race Control.

 

[JRS]

I think you've just demonstrated perfectly how people exaggerate when it comes to F1 'in the old days'. Considering most of your list wasn't racing ten years ago (the DFV last raced in 1985!) and you have just printed off a set of random F1 engines, many of which weren't racing in the same year, to try and prove a point hoping that no one would realise.

You what?

Where did I write DFV? You're right, obviously, that the venerable Cosworth DFV left F1 in 1985. I believe I wrote DFR, which didn't share a great deal with the DFV family beyond the 90° V8 layout.

That list is all the engines that took part in at least one race in the 1991 season, according to the cheat sheet on my computer. If it's wrong, then please - point out where and I'll update it. Or alternatively, just accuse me of not knowing what I'm talking about. Your call

 

[JRS]

Oops my bad, you didn't say DFV. But I hate to tell you this, we're old and 1991 wasn't 10 years ago.

I know, I know. Not sure why I typed ten. I did mean twenty, guess I was thinking about something else at the time!

I do miss the different sounds though

That's pretty much the point I was going for.

I miss hearing the difference between a V8, a V10 and a V12 flashing past the grandstand. I miss seeing more powerful but thirstier V12s going up against more frugal, lighter but less powerful V8s and having V10s in the mix that offer *some* of the advantages of both camps. I even miss the comedy of seeing someone try and build a real oddball like the Life L190 W16.

Ferrari abandoned the V12 for '96 when the FIA made it clear that they'd be mandating V10s soon. By '98, everyone was running a V10 and the only one that sounded out of the ordinary was the Merc unit (beryllium alloys and ultra-high revs ). The sport hasn't sounded the same ever since.

 

[JRS]

JRS says '10 years ago....' but really it was 20 years ago, time flies, people forget that. I think if you had a true list of engines on the grid from actually 10 years ago, 2001, you'd see a steady decline, jumping from a list of 13 to 4 wouldn't happen in just 10 years. But I agree with the point, we need more variety!

Like I said, my brain was supposed to be aiming for twenty but my hands typed ten

There were seven engine manufacturers in the sport ~5 years ago - Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault, Cosworth, Toyota, BMW, Honda. Honda pulled out at the end of '08, Toyota and BMW left a year later. Cosworth went away for a bit and only came back in because the new entrants were told they had to use them. But it's not like there's much point in having more manufacturers involved if they're all having to build substantially the same engine.

 

[JRS]

Nah, Oddball is an H16 like the BRM

Huge power, but peaky as all hell* Much like the V16 that BRM tried in the early days of the World Championship. The V16 didn't make any power at all until over 8000 rpm, then all hell broke loose - 1.5 litres, 16 cylinders, and a socking great 2-stage blower, it was always going to be fruity once on song!

Simon Taylor drove a BRM V16 GP car for Classic And Sports Car magazine a while back (Tom Wheatcroft was still alive, so it was before October '09). Fabulous car, and yet quite crap. It's a curious one!




* - and with a centre of gravity like you find on a double-decker bus

 

[JRS]

What a sound that V16 made, though!