Firing someone over Teams

Soldato
Joined
2 May 2011
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Woking
I've got a guy whose termination I've been putting off for a while hoping he'd get better, but he just hasn't and it's time for him to go.

Due to travel commitments and my personal life (impending baby) I can't really make it to the office he works in without either losing a full day or work or spending a small fortune on trains.

We are a predominantly in-person business, with little WFH (4-1 days hybrid), so Teams is pretty normal. I just feel a bit **** about the prospect of letting someone go over Teams.

I'd love to hear your thoughts.
 
Thanks for the advice everyone. Really genuinely appreciated.

whats been done to help him improve?

We have spent a disproportionate amount of energy trying to get him up to scratch, so effectively we've spent a hell of a lot of time with him, but haven't really got anything back.

I took about 6 months for me to realise that he's probably very autistic and has no idea, but I also can't really just call him out for being autistic. We don't have the resources to support that, particularly if he hasn't bothered to mention it.

He's been on a grad scheme rotation, so moved into a new module every six months.
 
I assume that this was structured - informal, formal verbal, PIP and now termination with a written record and KPI at each stage? If so that should be straight forward.

It wasn't. There were informal bits done, but we haven't done anything formal. Basically, it's not the way the company does it. It's happy to support on wrong cultural fit, that sort of thing. I have examples of the colleague just having complete holes in their knowledge on stuff they have been educated on many, many times. But they've also been here for under two years.

In short, I should have got rid of him a long time ago but I was too scared about having the conversation. I really hoped he'd step up, and he just hasn't.
 
What gave you this impression? If he's "very autistic" it shouldn't have taken 6 months to notice unless you had minimal communication with him.

I don't work with him that often. One of my team having been training him. He's very good at masking, though. He apparently did the best interview my colleague had ever seen (I didn't employ him), but when you speak to him in any other condition it's a one way conversation with two word answers from him.
 
I really empathise with this situation. The best time to do something about it might have been a while ago, but the second best time is now. Make sure to keep reminding yourself that you are helping your team and customer in the long term, even if it's a bit more work to recruit someone else. If you're naturally a nice guy it can be difficult to keep it in mind but, as said above, it's them that have failed to step up, and are now the one putting you in the awkward situation. The fact that you're making this post means that you've already gone over and above and seemingly taken on the stress of dealing with the outstanding situation, so you're likely the kind of person that - no matter how you approach it - will almost certainly deal with it more softly than the average person anyway.

Thank you, that's very generous of you. I'm going to script what I say actually, because I don't want to say anything that could cause problems, knowing that as a company we don't do PIPs etc.

I always feel stuck between a rock and a hard place of firstly, being a nice, secondly, trying to be positive with people as that has a huge ongoing impact, and trying to balance that with effectively telling them they're doing a bad job.
 
You said above that he probably doesn't know he's autistic, so I'm not sure how he'd be good at masking if he doesn't know he has it. Someone who gives two-word answers in casual conversation clearly isn’t masking their social deficits very well.

Anyway, if that's the case, you could do him a favour and politely nudge him in the right direction as he's likely to need some reasonable adjustments in his future employment and to disclose it. He'll never improve if he's just given the standard support, because that's not what he's struggling with.

I've mentored people with ASD and they find it incredibly difficult to ask for help and many don't want the stigma that is absolutely still attached to it. But they can thrive with the right support and accommodations.

I've actually had discussions with him about his "learning style" and how I thought he learned a bit differently from other people in the company. He hasn't done anything with that information, though. I also made the other module leaders for the grad scheme aware that he didn't really process information like everyone else, but frankly, we don't have the capacity to make sweeping adjustments to support him.

Good idea regarding the nudge feedback.

Regarding the masking, when you speak to him you have this two word conversation. He is one of the people that picks up the phones to redirect them (small company, everyone mucks in), and apparently he's good at that. Then I read an email from him and he's not picked up any of the customer's tone, etc, goes straight to mega-formal. I don't know - lot's to think about his character and whether he realises his needs differ from the norm, but I'm not going to put my foot in it by telling him that.
 
IMO anything like this needs to be in writing and laws and procedures followed exactly, or it will come back to haunt you later. If the company screwed up with something the law will always side with the employee. Then they will be looking for compo.

If they claim no one told them, what proof does the company have that they did if it's just over teams? From outside it might look like they simply stopped paying them.

I'm taking the company line on this. We don't typically follow a formal procedure for PIP, etc. I think that might change over time - it was only a year or two ago that we got an HR department, and that's still only one person.

I will be accompanied by a "notetaker" who also happens to be the HR person, so it won't just be me telling them something fortunately.
 
Yeah, but the company line doesn’t sound compatible with employment law, claims of unfair dismissal, etc. If your HR team (maybe Legal too) aren’t involved with this then involve them today.

Yup, HR is having to grin and bear it. We're effectively dismissing him because his work doesn't meet the required standard. We can prove that if necessary, particularly as we set the standard. It's not a protected characteristic. He didn't have a PIP, but there's really not much anyone can do if you feel he's a poor fit for the company.

I've learned a lot with this guy - firstly to take action as soon as I see a problem, and secondly to follow a procedure. But I'm not going to hang on to him just to do that. The company accepts it's a risk.
 
Yes, you can fire someone over teams but...

Check everything with your HR person and make sure HR and management *in whatever location this guy works at* know about it!

In particular - they might have concerns about:

1) If you send this guy a teams invite and he just takes the meeting at his desk in an open office then you've got privacy issues, (possible) issues with his reaction to being fired- they may want a meeting room booked for this if he's not working from home.

2) They will maybe want to notify building security at that other office location, coordinate with IT too so that his entry pass, email account and login etc.. all disconnect/become invalid right after the meeting. It is potentially an issue if he's going to be using his work laptop for this meeting - what does he have access too via his login - production systems? IP? etc.

Ideally, you want a meeting room booked, a local HR person present in the meeting and either his laptop taken off him as soon as the meeting is over or better yet just have the HR person set up the teams call with yourself and get him to come to a meeting room without his laptop etc.



Broadly you're fine here if it's < 2 years, especially if performance related. Definitely a good idea to not mention anything disability related if that's never been brought up and is just a personal hypothesis - if that is in fact the case then it creates a big potential liability for the company.

Just some minor criticism though - even if the company doesn't have a formal PIP process it's still your team and you can still choose to work with a HR rep and implement something along those lines (and indeed push for the company to broadly adopt such a thing).

In particular - did this guy pass his 6 month (or whatever time period) "probation" - if so why? If he's still in his probation period then perhaps this isn't appropriate unless he's really bad and you should instead look at something like extending the probation by 3 or 6 months and giving him objective points to improve upon + a team leader or more senior team member to mentor and check off on his objectives each week.

If he's passed his probation but is within the 2-year period then what actually happened here - was he OK and then his performance has dropped off? That's where you maybe do want to warn someone and give them 6 months to improve - though if that then leads to him being outside the 2 year period then it seems like something has gone wrong on the management side too here.

Evening. Thanks for the very thorough response.

I will ensure that my equivalent in his office knows it's happening. I will ask that he goes somewhere private, and HR will be in attendance. We will get him disconnected, although he will be asked just to leave his laptop. Shouldn't be a big deal to be honest.

I certainly won't mention my suspicions that he's autistic. I really think it's something that he should have told us though. If no one in his life has picked up on it, I think that's really strange. It's very noticeable in my opinion. Not that it really matters - just complicates the relationship with him.

He did pass his probation. The guy that passed it (equivalent in his office) hadn't had a proper chance to evaluate him, I don't think. That's unfortunate, but these things happen.

His performance hasn't dropped off, but its become more noticeably poor over time. Today, for example, he sent out a quote that hadn't been checked, which is SOP for us, and hadn't sorted out any of the corresponding information as it should have been. It's minor when taken in isolation, but it just makes a more complete picture to me that after 18 months or more, he still hasn't absorbed what some of the guys learn take as the norm in their first few weeks.

Yup, I will be pushing for a proper process. I am as guilty as anyone else, though.
 
TBH if I could see the end was near, I'd "call in sick" and go to interviews too. The job market is trash at the moment so you need all the time you can get. There is no real loyalty in business.

Honestly, I can’t see how the job is fulfilling for my guy and I really hoped he was interviewing recently. But apparently not as he hasn’t given his notice.

Honestly, I'd be wanting professional advice before doing anything due to this aspect. What if they actually know they're autistic/awaiting a diagnosis and put 2+2 together? Yes they should've make you aware of this but it's not that clearcut in reality.

I’ve given him many opportunities to mention it and have spoken to him about learning styles, but he didn’t say anything. It’s not just his potential autism - if he can’t keep up with the work then why should we keep him?
 
If he can sense things are against him, he may just bail and not give full notice especially if the next job pays more. I've done it before, the company owner was a dick and I wanted a month off before I started the new job lol.

I wish he'd do that, but he's not that savvy. He'll be paid for a month in lieu of notice and won't be asked to work it either.
 
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