Fitter holding tools to ransom - legal bods in here

doopydug · 10 Jul 2007 at 23:29

Wonder if any of you guys can give me some guidance here.

One of my fitters handed his notice in and has just not turned up for work. We went to get our van, tools and mobile phone off him today and he is holding back about £600 of tools until he gets his wages.

The guy has got problems and I have done nothing but help him and bend over backwards for him in the past year so feel a wee bit disapppointed that he has taken this stance. I don't like being taken for a ride or bullied either hence the need for advice.

I have been told he is committing a criminal offence by his actions and that I should call the police in the morning - does anyone know the correct position?

TIA

SB118 · 10 Jul 2007 at 23:32

Tricky area. It's not theft as he's not intending to deprive you of the tools perminantly.

Arcade Fire · 10 Jul 2007 at 23:37

Do you owe him wages? Did you have a contract with him that specified a minimum notice period?

doopydug · 10 Jul 2007 at 23:38

He will be due his last weeks wages next week.

He has a contract that states min notice period is one week

"andy" · 10 Jul 2007 at 23:59

well just wait till next week and hell give you the stuff back once hes been paid

Arcade Fire · 11 Jul 2007 at 00:00

I have absolute zero legal expertise, but it seems that unless you desperately need the tools, the easiest thing to do is pay him and get the tools back, and then don't bother speaking to him again. I don't see any need to involve the police.

doopydug · 11 Jul 2007 at 00:01

andy said:
well just wait till next week and hell give you the stuff back once hes been paid

Yes, that makes sense except I don't like succumbing to bullies - he has no reason to do this and I need the tools tomorrow for other fitters to do the job he was supposed to be doing.

doopydug · 11 Jul 2007 at 00:01

Arcade Fire said:
I have absolute zero legal expertise, but it seems that unless you desperately need the tools, the easiest thing to do is pay him and get the tools back, and then don't bother speaking to him again. I don't see any need to involve the police.

and if I pay him and I dont get my tools back?

Surely the law must be able to protect the innocent?

meghatronic · 11 Jul 2007 at 00:18

SB118 said:
Tricky area. It's not theft as he's not intending to deprive you of the tools perminantly.

So that 50" plasma I 'borrowed' from the supermarket is legal then - as I intend to give it back.... eventuallly....?

SB118 · 11 Jul 2007 at 00:29

jdickerson said:
So that 50" plasma I 'borrowed' from the supermarket is legal then - as I intend to give it back.... eventuallly....?

Do the supermarket owe you pots of money? I don't make the law....

Bar · 11 Jul 2007 at 00:33

I would go along the lines that:

He can hold the tools in lieu of payment only from the date that payment was due but not received - i.e. next week. Until that payment he has no rights to hold the tools.

You can also take the approach that by holding tools that do not belong to him he is committing theft which is a criminal act. If it prevents you/your company from earning money he is liable for the loss that is suffered as a direct result.

He cannot claim he is justified as the money he is due is not due to him as of yet. Therefore payment is not late or withheld unreasonably.

Advise him that if he insists on holding the tools you will either a) inform the police of his theft and/or b) advise him that you will be pursuing costs for any lost business as a result of him holding the tools.

The only slim hope that he would have of defending his actions is if he has substantial evidence to suggest that you will not make payment. But even so he has taken possession of items that do not legally belong to him. Just like the money he is due will be legally due him at the end of his notice period.

The above is purely my opinion and does not form the grounds of any legal advice - best to check with a lawyer / the police.

Arcade Fire · 11 Jul 2007 at 00:52

doopydug said:
and if I pay him and I dont get my tools back?

Then involve the police. Do you think that there's a chance he'll hold on to your tools when you pay him, then? For the moment, from a purely pragmatic standpoint, there doesn't seem to be any need to bring the law into it. He's acting like a tit, but aren't you mature enough to deal with this without having to run to mummy and daddy?

If you really need the tools right now, then be the big man and pay him early to get them back. He might think he's scored points off you, but he's only hurting himself in the long run.

meghatronic · 11 Jul 2007 at 01:20

Arcade Fire said:
but aren't you mature enough to deal with this without having to run to mummy and daddy?

Remember that next time you get your head caved in with a bottle by someone a?

Docaroo · 11 Jul 2007 at 01:34

Bar said:
snip...

this sounds about right to me - I second Bar's post.

Arcade Fire · 11 Jul 2007 at 01:37

jdickerson said:
Remember that next time you get your head caved in with a bottle by someone a?

Eh?

meghatronic · 11 Jul 2007 at 01:46

Arcade Fire said:
Eh?

Nevermind! Long day, was being facetious. Sorry.

unwashed potato! · 11 Jul 2007 at 01:58

i also agree with what bar has said but tbh be careful that he is not doing this just because he is a tit rather then wanting the money, and if you threaten him with police etc, he might act out and break your tools and then give them back once he has his money.

can't uyou pay him cash at the same time as getting your tools back and then have him sign something to prove you did pay him?

Nicos Rex · 11 Jul 2007 at 02:56

At this stage if you were to call the police you would be told that this is a civil dispute and that until you had at least made some effort to resolve it police would not get involved.

How do I know this?

Because I work in a police control room and have given this advice to many other people that have phoned.

Jolteh · 11 Jul 2007 at 03:52

If he's terminated his employment contract with you and has no intention to work his notice then his continued posession of your equipment is classed as theft. He has no right to keep your gear in order to ensure the payment of his wages - it's the equivilent of someone keeping their company car or laptop after they quit.

Personally I'd get the police to go round and retrieve them. Then once you get your gear back I'd suggest not paying him unless you absolutely have to (solicitor's letter).

Of course, if his wages amount to more than the cost of the equipment he is holding then you could just go and buy some new gear and not pay him.

Nicos Rex · 11 Jul 2007 at 04:14

Jolteh said:
If he's terminated his employment contract with you and has no intention to work his notice then his continued posession of your equipment is classed as theft. He has no right to keep your gear in order to ensure the payment of his wages - it's the equivilent of someone keeping their company car or laptop after they quit.

Personally I'd get the police to go round and retrieve them. Then once you get your gear back I'd suggest not paying him unless you absolutely have to (solicitor's letter).

Of course, if his wages amount to more than the cost of the equipment he is holding then you could just go and buy some new gear and not pay him.

Without going into a lengthy discussion of the definition of theft, suffice to say that at such an early stage in the proceedings there is no way that the OP will be able to "get the police to go round and retrieve" anything. It may not be equitable. it may not be logical, but it's the law.

Contact the police by all means, you might get lucky and be able to convice the call-taker that police will attend. If you manage to do this, expect a call back about 5 minutes later from a controller sitting in front of a screen with 30 unassigned jobs and 4 officers to deal with them. You can be fairly confident that whatever you say the words "civil dispute, advice given" will be being typed on the log.