Front Parking Sensors

My car has all manner of things which would make Mickey_D mad with rage.

Specifically, Front/Rear PDC, ABS, DSC with ASC+T, EBD, CBC etc etc.

Does this mean I can't drive a car without driver aids? Of course not. My Mondeo had no driver aids bar ABS and power steering. I am not dead. Infact, I could probably drive the 530i without an issue without driver aids. It's interesting to drive the car seeing if you can drive in such a way that no matter what you do, the DSC light doesn't come on. So far, with the exception of pulling away on wet roads, I've managed it.

Does this make me some sort of driving hero? Don't be daft, of course not. Would I ever turn them off? Probably not, no. 99.9% of the time, I don't need them. But there might be that one time, on a wet road, when I'm driving along at 60 and somebody pulls out. I swerve to avoid them, and DSC keeps the car on the road. Now, had I not had DSC, I might have been in a tree. Had Mickey_D been in exactly the same situation without DSC, he might also be in a tree.

Some accidents are inevitable regardless of driver skill if they involve unexpected outside influences. For this, it's nice to know that electronic safety net is there if you need it.

If highly skilled drivers had no need driver aids, we'd never see a single 'off' in Motorsport..

Personally I think its an ego thing - I AM LEET BECUASE I DONT HAVE *insert useful aid here*.
 
Add this to the fact that every day, hundreds of people crash their cars in stupid, ridiculous ways, becuase they can't drive properly.

Now, I'd rather these morons had DSC becuase there is a little less chance that way of rounding a corner to find them understeering head on into my car.
 
But Fox, if you go too fast, even if you have DSC it'll try and help, but if you're going too fast you're going too fast - computers can't break the laws of physics.
 
Thats true. So you'll crash. But you'll crash without DSC and stuff as well so why is that suddenly an OMG DRIVER AIDS SUCK issue? Thats an OMG SOME DRIVERS SUCK issue which is totally different.

This is the equivilent of saying 30 years ago OMG I DONT NEED INDEPENDANT SPRINGS AND DAMPERS IM LEET, LEAF SPRINGS ALL ROUND FOR ME. Stop resisting progress and clutching at nostalgia.
 
Oh I'm not saying progress isn't a bad thing. And if I'm honest, sometimes it would be niec to have TC on my car, as I don't always want to have to be on my guard for the back end not to come out on damp leaf covered tight turns... However my point was that there's too much "reliance" on these gadgets - and I think what Mickey and others have been saying is that as long as they are not intrusive on the drivability of the vehicle or take over too much. As you say you can turn them off, and it's nice to be able to. I also like the raw driving feel I get without them. Of course I'm no colin mccrae I don't have the skill to drive on the cutting edge (and they still get it wrong of course) - I just think that people now are all living in this cocoon of safety and treat everything with kid gloves. I just find that backward and boring.

Then again I'm a person that loves to throw himself out of planes, has no fear of dying, has no perception of fear and generally doesn't give a fig about much - so maybe I'm not the best person to have a rational opposing view of it ;)

Progress is good as long as it isn't intrusive.

Yes if the person crashes with or without DSC it becomes a driver issue - which IS entirely the point. People just DON'T KNOW HOW TO DRIVE! And they think, oooh well I managed to go round that corner fast (not aware that the driver aids kicked in at 110% to save their ass) so I can go round the next one fast too. If the car went wobbly, and they had been taught how to correct it - or even better, learn to read the road to avoid that situation - they would think twice about the "I'm a leet driver" attitudes.
 
DSC / EBD / ABS / TCS and whatever you want to call them our days are a good thing, some cheaper systems or systems made for non sports cars cut in to early and i do have issue with that, but if the system doesn't cut in till you have exceeded your skill then thats great, thats why i love systems with set 'amounts of slip' programs.

Driving aids arn't the be all and end all, the stability system can be as good as it likes but you still need enough road left for the car to sort itself out, it will correct the slide quicker than you could but if your out of black stuff you will still crash.

So for me, late acting or systems that can be turned off = good, early acting and systems that can't be turned off = bad.

Everyone must have have seen Tiff driving that jag x type on the ice, amazing technology imho.
 
Freefaller said:
Oh I'm not saying progress isn't a bad thing. And if I'm honest, sometimes it would be niec to have TC on my car, as I don't always want to have to be on my guard for the back end not to come out on damp leaf covered tight turns... However my point was that there's too much "reliance" on these gadgets - and I think what Mickey and others have been saying is that as long as they are not intrusive on the drivability of the vehicle or take over too much. As you say you can turn them off, and it's nice to be able to. I also like the raw driving feel I get without them. Of course I'm no colin mccrae I don't have the skill to drive on the cutting edge (and they still get it wrong of course) - I just think that people now are all living in this cocoon of safety and treat everything with kid gloves. I just find that backward and boring.

Then again I'm a person that loves to throw himself out of planes, has no fear of dying, has no perception of fear and generally doesn't give a fig about much - so maybe I'm not the best person to have a rational opposing view of it ;)

Progress is good as long as it isn't intrusive.

Yes if the person crashes with or without DSC it becomes a driver issue - which IS entirely the point. People just DON'T KNOW HOW TO DRIVE! And they think, oooh well I managed to go round that corner fast (not aware that the driver aids kicked in at 110% to save their ass) so I can go round the next one fast too. If the car went wobbly, and they had been taught how to correct it - or even better, learn to read the road to avoid that situation - they would think twice about the "I'm a leet driver" attitudes.
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Next time you come up I hope to be less hungover - we'll take the Mondeo down some of the lanes and experience some gadget free thrills. I'll even pull the ABS relay :D
 
I literally laughed out loud at Freefaller's "I throw myself out of airplanes" comment!! :D

Now, back to the discussion. I'll relent that safety aids such as ABS, DSC, etc are all well and good. I guess I'm more against pointless stupid things like parking sensors. Things that aren't safety related.

Yes, I'd rather the car my wife was driving with my son in the back seat had every conceivable safety option available. Hell, I wish I could have her driving a Mercedes Unimog with tracks so if some idiot cut her off she'd be able to just drive right over them and not even blink, but hey, we live in the real world.

But parking sensors? WTF? If you feel you need them, it's more likely you need new glasses!!
 
Lopéz said:
Next time you come up I hope to be less hungover - we'll take the Mondeo down some of the lanes and experience some gadget free thrills. I'll even pull the ABS relay :D
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Hell, get him signed off on a Lear jet and fly over in January and we'll go have some REAL fun!! We can take the truck out and have some RWD arse-end-out romping!! Then we can take the Neon out with the ABS relay pulled and the parking brake locked (I'm sure the wife won't mind ;) )!!! :D
 
Hmm I wonder what driver aids my car has that would make is a poor car in some people's eyes.

Four wheels drive
Front and rear electronic LSDs
Corner brake control
ABS with individual wheel braking
Traction control with four wheel power distribution
Stability control
Front and rear parking sensors
Overspeed warnings
Air suspension with adjustable ride height and damping
Speed sensitive power steering
Satellite navigation with TMC
TV
18 speaker hifi
18 way electric seats with memory
Keyless entry and keyless go

None of these things are essential but all of them are nice to have. I don;t care if they go wrong because none of them will cost a fortune to fix (relatively speaking).
 
[TW]Fox said:
And remember, a car with broken DSC is.... exactly the same as a car without DSC fitted.
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The thing is though, that is not strictly true with regard to the way the two cars would be driven.
You must drive a car with DSC exactly the same as you would drive a car without it, because what happens when it decides to go haywire or break just at the time you need it.

If it is fitted and it breaks just as you need it, you are dead, because you will probably be driving in such a manner that you are relying on it intervening if you go a little oveboard, as you go overboard and it cuts out you will be stuffed like a nice large christmas one!!

If it is not fitted in the first place, then you will not be relying on it in any way, and would therefore be driving accordingly, so will most likely never get into the situation in the first place, whereby it would have been needed.

That is the point I believe is trying to be made here. These gadgets are all well and good, but if people start to drive thinking that if they get a bit out of shape then the "electronics will sort me out" i.e.
[TW]Fox said:
Some accidents are inevitable regardless of driver skill if they involve unexpected outside influences. For this, it's nice to know that electronic safety net is there if you need it.
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That in my opinion is where it all goes wrong, you should NEVER EVER drive thinking that, because you should always be expecting the unexpected, you should be always expecting that when you need any of these lovely gadgets in an emergency situation, they will not be there for you.

So if you are driving and believing that they will not be there for you, then why have them in the first place.

If the manufacturers instead of spending alll this money on developing all this carp, spent half the amount on compulsory advanced driver training courses, then everyone would be better off.
 
Entai said:
If the manufacturers instead of spending alll this money on developing all this carp, spent half the amount on compulsory advanced driver training courses, then everyone would be better off.
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Heh, but then they wouldn't be making NEARLY as much off the numpty who put 100% trust in his driving aids and stacked his 2002 Focus and now needs to go buy a new one......;)
 
Mickey_D said:
Heh, but then they wouldn't be making NEARLY as much off the numpty who put 100% trust in his driving aids and stacked his 2002 Focus and now needs to go buy a new one......;)
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The vast majority of 2002 Focus's have no driver aids bar ABS and power steering if you count that. But hey, dont let the facts get in the way of your prejudiced rant eh ;)
 
[TW]Fox said:
The vast majority of 2002 Focus's have no driver aids bar ABS and power steering if you count that. But hey, dont let the facts get in the way of your prejudiced rant eh ;)
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Actually, I just grabbed a make/model out of the air for my statement. But I think you get the generalised gist of what I was saying, right? ;)

pedantic little ****
 
Mickey_D said:
But parking sensors? WTF? If you feel you need them, it's more likely you need new glasses!!
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I dunno if you've been to the UK but parking spaces can be very restrictive in this country. I'm pretty crap at parking and I wouldn't mind some sensors to help :D
 
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