g20 trouble

[TW]Fox · 1 Apr 2009 at 19:27

Doran said:
I remember a few years ago when I went on the original stop the war march - if we had refused to leave the streets for days and weeks on end in our thousands, I think the govt would literally have had to pull out of Iraq.

They would have ignored you, because your views and opinions are uneducated and worthless to government. This is not a personal insult, I'm talking protesters in general and 'you' is a collectivist term. Most of the ones interviewed on the news didnt even know why they were there.

The Funktopus · 1 Apr 2009 at 19:27

Rich_L said:
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7977489.stm

Keyboard warriors for real??

"People please, beatings,vandalism and QWERTYings will achieve nothing!"

Le_Petit_Lapin · 1 Apr 2009 at 19:27

Doran said:
Not for those with a social conscience.

Wow...I wish I could get days off work to go and settle my conscience.

Sankari · 1 Apr 2009 at 19:29

Doran said:
I was there.

It was good, except the Police impounded the whole area and no one could get in or out for three hours. Unlawfully restricting our freedom of movement.

No, they were acting lawfully. Police are perfectly entitled to enclose and control a riot mob. This is standard practice.

The only lawlessness was conducted by the people breaking windows and trashing offices.

There were also moments with some exceptional heavy handedness where some people got some nasty batterings, which was totally out of order.

Not to mention the violent damage of private property. Oh wait, that was your mates, wasn't it?

Doran · 1 Apr 2009 at 19:32

[TW]Fox;13801088 said:
They would have ignored you, because your views and opinions are uneducated and worthless to government. This is not a personal insult, I'm talking protesters in general and 'you' is a collectivist term. Most of the ones interviewed on the news didnt even know why they were there.

Regretably I have to agree. Its a shame.

However I will carry on in vain.

Capitalism will only go away once it has destroyed itself, and recently it has given us an indicator of that being more likely perhaps before we first imagined.

The real killer will be in however many years that the worlds resources become strained. No economist has ever adequately explained how capitalism can be sustainable because it needs growth.

Without growth, there is not enough wealth to pay back the loans and their inetrest in the first place.

Doran · 1 Apr 2009 at 19:32

Le_Petit_Lapin said:
Wow...I wish I could get days off work to go and settle my conscience.

Its called sick leave.

Not that I used it, as I am a student of law.

teaboy5 · 1 Apr 2009 at 19:33

Doran said:
My view is that any protect should start and only stop once whatever it is seeking to change stops.

As you imply, the state will just endure the day, and then move on.

I remember a few years ago when I went on the original stop the war march - if we had refused to leave the streets for days and weeks on end in our thousands, I think the govt would literally have had to pull out of Iraq.

Protests need to go on longer to be effective, so they force action from the top.

Change what? Why were you there?

They interviewed one person and he didn't have a clue why he was there.

CaptainComedy · 1 Apr 2009 at 19:34

Doran said:
I remember a few years ago when I went on the original stop the war march - if we had refused to leave the streets for days and weeks on end in our thousands, I think the govt would literally have had to pull out of Iraq.

Protests need to go on longer to be effective, so they force action from the top.

I honestly dont think the government would care about you standing on the street for weeks on end - I think its a public offence to stand in the same place for a certain length of time and you'd be ushered by the police.

Sankari · 1 Apr 2009 at 19:36

Doran said:
FALSE.

True. The police made their strategy public five days in advance, so that protesters could plan accordingly. This was confirmed in a Radio 4 interview with a police chief today (heard it on my way back from work).

If the protesters were too lazy to check what the police had in mind, that's their own stupid fault.

I am all for protests; they're one of the great privileges we enjoy under a liberal democracy. But I despise violent protests, and I despise people who try to pin all the blame on the police without taking any responsibility for their own actions.

Capitalism will only go away once it has destroyed itself, and recently it has given us an indicator of that being more likely perhaps before we first imagined.

What do you intend to replace it with? Like democracy, capitalism is the best of the evils available. There is no viable alternative. It's become popular because it works!

Le_Petit_Lapin · 1 Apr 2009 at 19:38

Doran said:
The real killer will be in however many years that the worlds resources become strained. No economist has ever adequately explained how capitalism can be sustainable because it needs growth.

Without growth, there is not enough wealth to pay back the loans and their inetrest in the first place.

What are you babbling about? You've got Capitalism and Banking muddled up there.

CaptainComedy · 1 Apr 2009 at 19:46

Le_Petit_Lapin said:
What are you babbling about? You've got Capitalism and Banking muddled up there.

confusion is just another reason to protest

Vonhelmet · 1 Apr 2009 at 19:47

Doran said:
Its called sick leave.

Not that I used it, as I am a student of law.

No. If you have any integrity it's called "annual leave".

JamesU2005 · 1 Apr 2009 at 19:51

The vast majority of this so called protest are the media, a few genuine protesters but mainly ****** that just want to cause trouble.

When they are interviewed by news crews half of them don't even know why they are there!

Hats off to the police they have done a great job.

Doran · 1 Apr 2009 at 19:52

codec said:
I honestly dont think the government would care about you standing on the street for weeks on end - I think its a public offence to stand in the same place for a certain length of time and you'd be ushered by the police.

You can't put 56 million people in jail, which is the point I am making.

Le_Petit_Lapin · 1 Apr 2009 at 19:56

Doran said:
You can't put 56 million people in jail, which is the point I am making.

They wouldn't have to, just the 4000-odd protesters.

Mr^B · 1 Apr 2009 at 20:15

Doran said:
Regretably I have to agree. Its a shame.

However I will carry on in vain.

Capitalism will only go away once it has destroyed itself, and recently it has given us an indicator of that being more likely perhaps before we first imagined.

The real killer will be in however many years that the worlds resources become strained. No economist has ever adequately explained how capitalism can be sustainable because it needs growth.

Without growth, there is not enough wealth to pay back the loans and their inetrest in the first place.

This is the case in point, you are against capitalism but don't understand what capitalism is, where it stops and where something else takes over.

Capitalism is the private ownership of the means of production, that's it.

It's nothing to do with banks, or loans, or debt, or anything else...you can have that with communism, feudalism, socialism, a primitive barter system without a concept of currency can has the concept of loans...even derivatives (i'll give you a lamb next spring for a dozen turnips today...etc...)

I suggest you find out what you're really for and really against, and then join the correct protest.

Doran · 1 Apr 2009 at 20:27

Mr^B said:
This is the case in point, you are against capitalism but don't understand what capitalism is, where it stops and where something else takes over.

Capitalism is the private ownership of the means of production, that's it.

It's nothing to do with banks, or loans, or debt, or anything else...you can have that with communism, feudalism, socialism, a primitive barter system without a concept of currency can has the concept of loans...even derivatives (i'll give you a lamb next spring for a dozen turnips today...etc...)

I suggest you find out what you're really for and really against, and then join the correct protest.

Totally false.

Capitalism does not exist without capital. Capital cannot survive without debt.

Have you read Marx at all?

Anyway, I don't really want to discuss this here. Very few people on this forum understand either politics or economics.

Mr^B · 1 Apr 2009 at 20:35

Doran said:
Totally false.

Capitalism does not exist without capital. Capital cannot survive without debt.

Have you read Marx at all?

Anyway, I don't really want to discuss this here. Very few people on this forum understand either politics or economics.

I'm sure you don't want to discuss that which you blatantly do not understand, I wouldn't either.

Capital can survive without debt, of course it can. A farmer owns land and has a flock of sheep, that's his capital, he owns the flock, where's the debt? A workers collective work a patch of land and grow turnips, they sell the turnips (their capital), where's their debt? I work for a privately owned corporation, I buy a flat outright, where's the debt?

Debt can exist and not exist wherever someone or something has a means of producing something that someone else wants, it's nothing to do with the underlying economy or who owns the means of production.

I've read Marx, yes, but the difference is that I read it AND understood it.

CaptainComedy · 1 Apr 2009 at 20:41

Doran said:
Totally false.

Capitalism does not exist without capital. Capital cannot survive without debt.

Have you read Marx at all?

Anyway, I don't really want to discuss this here. Very few people on this forum understand either politics or economics.

here you go mate

< click on the teachers face

Surfer · 1 Apr 2009 at 20:55

Doran said:
You can't put 56 million people in jail, which is the point I am making.

i beg to differ.

http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=102262576

What do you intend to replace it with? Like democracy, capitalism is the best of the evils available. There is no viable alternative. It's become popular because it works!

whilst i dont entirely disagree with you.. that ^^ is the usual worn out, tired cliched response, vague, indeterminate and pessimistic. How about saying something laudable about capitalism? something good, warm and fuzzy?

Was watching a little of the news reports on this: they were saying a lot of ppl were just milling about not knowing what they were doing or why they were there... which is interesting.. to be expected yep but interesting nonetheless.

example - how do you know when something is wrong? How do you know if when somebody does something its unjust? or immoral? or cruel? (etc etc etc) Is it a set of principles that value life, compassion, community and freedom? (insert other values you hold dear)

So when you encounter something which decries those principles it gets your hackles up right? You might not know how to put humpty dumpty together again....but you can see hes broken.....you feel it first.....

LATER comes the argument... the argument arises out of the broken remains of humpty dumpty.

This is why people protest - they might not have the answer.... but its **** easier to identify where something doesnt feel right....out of place...the time is out of joint...