Gaming and Bufferbloat

SpellowHouse · 17 Jun 2022 at 08:35

Testing my internet connection, one problem I have is that when I am gaming my latency collapses if anything else uses the broadband. I can happily allow up to about 70% of the bandwidth to be used but any more than that, and my latency increases by a factor of 100.

I have been experimenting with some routers to try to correct this, but my knowledge is just too poor!

I tried a Netgear XR1000 because they specifically mention that they limit the bandwidth when a game is detected. The system works very well, but the router is a bit basic and seems that they often suffer bugs which ironically often affect the very feature I want.

Problem is that I can't seem to find other routers that have this feature. Perhaps they do, they just don't specifically mention it. TP link for example just come out with vague terms without specifying exactly what you are getting.

Can anyone give me pointers on this?

ChrisD. · 17 Jun 2022 at 08:51

Who is your ISP?

SpellowHouse · 17 Jun 2022 at 09:31

Zen. I have mentioned this to thm, but they quickly dismiss it. I never seem to get an answer from them about it and I sort of get the idea that they are saying there is nothing they can do about it. Probably I don't know much about what I am talking about so I give up too easily.

ChrisD. · 17 Jun 2022 at 09:53

What type of connection? Have you limited upload bandwidth to 90% of the total available?

SpellowHouse · 17 Jun 2022 at 09:58

ChrisD. said:
What type of connection? Have you limited upload bandwidth to 90% of the total available?

Experimants have shown me that when I am gaming I need to limit it to 70% or so. This has minimal effect on the latency when everything else is using the broadband. Problem is that apart from the Netgear I am not sure what other routers have the ability to do this when I am gaming. I don't really want to set it as low as 70% all the time. There are some routers that seem to offer this under different names but I am uncertain which.

ChrisD. · 17 Jun 2022 at 09:59

Why not use the router they gave you? You don't need to buy a 'gaming' router, they often make things worse.

SpellowHouse · 17 Jun 2022 at 10:06

ChrisD. said:
Why not use the router they gave you? You don't need to buy a 'gaming' router, they often make things worse.

OK but how? I mean what do I need to set? I have looked in other routers and no one seems to have that setting ( well, maybe they do but I don't know what names it goes by ).

ChrisD. · 17 Jun 2022 at 10:26

What did Zen send you? Is it the AVM FRITZ!Box 7530?

Plug it back in and give them a call, they should be more than happy to guide you through it.

Alternatively check the documentation, such as this:

Prioritizing internet access for important network applications and devices in the FRITZ!Box | FRITZ!Box 7530

In the FRITZ!Box, you can specify which network devices and applications are treated with high priority or low priority when accessing the internet. This way you can ensure optimal response times for online games even if peer-to-peer services are using the internet connection at the same time...

en.avm.de

SpellowHouse · 17 Jun 2022 at 10:49

ChrisD. said:
What did Zen send you? Is it the AVM FRITZ!Box 7530?

Plug it back in and give them a call, they should be more than happy to guide you through it.

Alternatively check the documentation, such as this:

Prioritizing internet access for important network applications and devices in the FRITZ!Box | FRITZ!Box 7530

In the FRITZ!Box, you can specify which network devices and applications are treated with high priority or low priority when accessing the internet. This way you can ensure optimal response times for online games even if peer-to-peer services are using the internet connection at the same time...

en.avm.de

Prioritisation doesn't work. Once the connection is pretty much saturated then the delays exist no matter what I set in the router. So far the only think I have found that does actually work is the Congestion Control that is in some Netgear routers. Queue Management I think it is called in some others ( I have been trying to read up on it, but ... ). It seems that the only way to combat the problem is to limit the amount of traffic.

ChrisD. · 17 Jun 2022 at 10:54

Is this FTTC or FTTP? Do you have a TBB monitor?

Broadband Quality Monitor | thinkbroadband

FREE Broadband Quality Monitor to keep track of latency & packet loss

www.thinkbroadband.com

I presume that you are trying wired and not wireless?

SpellowHouse · 17 Jun 2022 at 11:02

fttp. what is tbb? yes, wired.

Armageus · 17 Jun 2022 at 11:13

SpellowHouse said:
Prioritisation doesn't work.

It will work fine providing the apps are being categorised correctly - i.e. your games need to be "Prioritized applications", and whatever else that is using the network needs to be categorised as "background applications".

The only way you could do this any differently is to use something like a Draytek router, limit bandwidth per device to say 5Mb down/1Mb up, which will physically stop any one device from using all the available bandwidth (but then has huge downsides in that you slow down e.g. game updates, as they can't then use all the bandwidth when needed)

ChrisD. · 17 Jun 2022 at 11:22

SpellowHouse said:
what is tbb

Follow the link.

SpellowHouse · 17 Jun 2022 at 11:23

Armageus said:
It will work fine providing the apps are being categorised correctly - i.e. your games need to be "Prioritized applications", and whatever else that is using the network needs to be categorised as "background applications".

The only way you could do this any differently is to use something like a Draytek router, limit bandwidth per device to say 5Mb down/1Mb up, which will physically stop any one device from using all the available bandwidth (but then has huge downsides in that you slow down e.g. game updates, as they can't then use all the bandwidth when needed)

The problem is that I don't think the delays are anything to do with me, so priority seems to have no effect. Only slowing the connection down does. But thing is that I don't want to slow it all down all the time, hence the need for SQM ( Now I have learnt that's what it's called, lol ).

Armageus · 17 Jun 2022 at 11:31

SpellowHouse said:
The problem is that I don't think the delays are anything to do with me, so priority seems to have no effect.

But if your apps aren't being correctly prioritised, how does your router know that it should prioritise your traffic?

And expanding on the why you think the delays aren't anything to do with you..

SpellowHouse said:
my latency collapses if anything else uses the broadband.

So what else is using the broadband?

If you know what else is using it, you categorise that as background applications

SpellowHouse said:
Only slowing the connection down does. But thing is that I don't want to slow it all down all the time, hence the need for SQM ( Now I have learnt that's what it's called, lol ).

SQM isn't the be all and end all (and indeed there are other algorithms like fq_codel or cake), if you don't know exactly what is using the bandwidth at any given time, it's going to be difficult to control it?

It might be useful to even know what speed your connection is? (there's a whole load of difference between trying to traffic shape my <20Mbps FTTC connection with 3 Kids using it, versus a 900Mbps FTTP that should need very little interaction)

Avalon · 17 Jun 2022 at 13:35

Assuming nothing other than the basic traffic shaping (though prioritisation seems to be in fashion) most ISP's will do so that latency sensitive VoIP isn't playing second fiddle to P2P is in play (Hint: it isn't on FTTC), this is a you issue, not an ISP issue. In simple terms if you download data, the internet is generally based on that data being sent and the sending server receiving and acknowledgment, on an asymmetrical connection (eg FTTC) you get data and send an acknowledgment, but those acknowledgments are going to potentially increase your latency, things like VoIP or some games are quite sensitive to latency, so if you're trying to saturate your download while gaming, it's obvious. The slower the connection or the more imbalanced the upload to download ratio is, the more easy it tends to be to trigger. The same issue with the same numbers wouldn't be anywhere near as obvious on a symmetrical connection such as symmetrical FTTP or if you had more upload bandwidth everything else being equal.

If I for example saturate my upload while my wife is watching a video and the kids are doing whatever it is that kids do, it's all but guaranteed (without some form of local QoS) to result in complaints of buffering or lag. With something like SQM or fq_code/cake in play and appropriately set-up, I can upload as much as I like and she's non the wiser unless she also needs to upload data at the same time. In terms of where you go and what you do, something WRT based is probably your best bet with fq_codel or cake baked in, Linksys and Netgear make suitable candidates with decent support, but you'll need an external modem for FTTC as non of them will support a router with inbuilt modem.

SpellowHouse · 17 Jun 2022 at 14:29

Armageus said:
But if your apps aren't being correctly prioritised, how does your router know that it should prioritise your traffic?

And expanding on the why you think the delays aren't anything to do with you..

So what else is using the broadband?

If you know what else is using it, you categorise that as background applications

SQM isn't the be all and end all (and indeed there are other algorithms like fq_codel or cake), if you don't know exactly what is using the bandwidth at any given time, it's going to be difficult to control it?

It might be useful to even know what speed your connection is? (there's a whole load of difference between trying to traffic shape my <20Mbps FTTC connection with 3 Kids using it, versus a 900Mbps FTTP that should need very little interaction)

I don't honestly see what it has to do with what is using the bandwidth. I mean this is about reducing the available bandwidth to all devices when I am playing games. I tried prioritising traffic, making everything low priority apart from games and it made absolutely no difference.
It's a 300mbps download 50mbps upload. There are some servers we use that can easily use any bandwidth that is made available to them. The main problem though is actually the upload. That falls apart very quickly.
But using the Netgear Congestion Control ( which limits bandwidth ) it works very well. My only problem is that it's very buggy software. It has a habit of randomly not working at all.

Armageus · 17 Jun 2022 at 14:40

SpellowHouse said:
I don't honestly see what it has to do with what is using the bandwidth.

Because it may be easier to deal with whatever else is using the bandwidth (e.g. rate limit torrents or the like in software), rather than trying to band aid the problem after the fact.

SpellowHouse said:
It's a 300mbps download 50mbps upload. There are some servers we use that can easily use any bandwidth that is made available to them. The main problem though is actually the upload. That falls apart very quickly.

No game servers in the world use 50mbps upload.