General Headphone Audio

[Things change I've changed]

Nothing changes in here I see, putting down of Rotel now as well!, an amazing family owned Japanese company that has really good heritage, so what's the new hotness we all should worship at the feet of today?, let me guess, anything that MRK owns lol, and 16 bit be damned!!

A well implemented Delta sigma will always trump any well implemented R2R on paper, Delta sigma factually performs better, but that obviously doesn't mean it's preferred as a listening experience on a subjective level.

@mrk You've already got the Fiio Warmer thread locked on ASR due to your arguing on there, when you yourself said,

"this WARMER DAC is designed from the start to ignore measurements, it's even marketed as such and the Fiio CEO interviews published by various outlets highlight the reasons as to why."

Which is correct, "designed from the start to ignore measurements", you're on a measurement based forum trying to argue the toss when you yourself admit the product in question is not designed to be a measurement king, just accept that subjectively you like a product and that's it, you don't need to convert everyone around you, I love the Chord DAVE, it's a 10 grand DAC, it got butchered on ASR, I'm not going to try and convince them otherwise, truth be told they have some valid points, but you know what?, it's ok, science has it's place as much a subjective and personal opinions.

And Luxsin aren't members of the magic circle doing voodoo with DAC chips that only they can do, manufactures have been getting good results from DACs for decades now, plenty of good DACs out there for penny these days, truth be told you could probably blind test an SMSL SU-1 (£60) will most probably perform audibly as well as any DAC out there, TBH DACs have solved 'the problem' a long time ago which is one of the reasons R2R DACs are popular today is because they the deviate from that and offer something 'new' to sell to the masses.

I can already pre-empt the laiv crescendo verse critique now, "OMG the display is only 20x7 dot matrix, whaaaaaaaaaa!!", "the knob doesn't click whaaaaaaaa", "the case thickness whaaaaaaa!!".

End of the day just enjoy what you like whether it's a £200 JSD Labs Atom stack (which in my opinion could be genuinely end game) or a 20k setup, this isn't a religion where we need convert people or nit pick at other products all the time to help affirm our purchases.

 

[Angst]

The Centaurus by various reviewers big and small have said sounds good but too un-R2R-like likely because of this very reason. It's more analytical than musical, it's been engineered for transparency.

The higher model Laiv DACs with tighter tolerances sound more musical going by reviews because the rest of the implementation is better thought out than say Centaurus. I do not believe OS vs NOS has anything to do with it since OS/NOS are software filters and reprocessing, not actual hardware elements, which is why OS does not sound natural to my ears whereas NOS does, and considering the implementation of the rest of the components in those FiiO DACs is very good, the NOS experience is very detailed but still musical/natural or whatever anyone wants to label it as, and only gets moreso with a good LPS.

Not sure what you mean by that, NOS VS OS has a lot to do with it. You have a lower SNR due to the lower tolerance resistors and its effective 12bit resolution. The oversampling filter increases the sample rate and essentially spreads the noise across a larger spectrum, reducing how much is in the audible band 0-20khz before everything out of the audible band is filtered out. Whereas something like the centaurus with its higher quality components has a higher snr and lower noise to begin with. Nothing wrong with liking the NOS sound on the cheaper r2r dac, my only point is that the quality of the components has everything to do with how an r2r dac sounds.

I cant find the specs for the Centaurus/holo audio components but the Laiv Harmony doesn't seem to use that much higher tolerance ones than fiio which i guees it why it still has that kind of sound you like.

 

[mrk]

The ASR Warmer thread was modded because too many people came in throwing insults at those who were posting their preferences, not just at me, perhaps you should have posted links to those posts instead things change because the way you've said it, it sounds like it was me doing the arguing when it wasn't. After that thread several people DM'd on ASR saying it was about time someone stuck to their guns instead of going with the bandwagon which is the typical ASR norm.

The rest is your interpretation which you are entitled to as before, it doesn't sway my view one way or the other as I have always remained consistent in my own experience and subsequent preference. You just seem to have an issue with me relaying what I'm observing, there has been no diss of Rotel, I have pointed out matters of fact based on what reviews and people are showing and saying, and then pointing out that for £1500, these issues should not exist, just like how the LCD-5 should not be anywhere near £4k with the way it sounds, yet you claimed they were the most balanced planar out there back at that time.

 

[Things change I've changed]

LCD-5 for me personally was/is a very balanced Planer, for me, you don't gave to agree with that, preferences, you know, it's kind of a thing, and also head-related transfer function plays a massive part in audio preferences and tolerances in the FR domain.

The difference is I'm not making multiple silly posts putting down a product I don't like which you did regarding the LCD-5, for example posting photos with a lamp behind the HE1000se and LCD-5 showing how much light is shining through the drivers and equating that to audio transparency lol.

You try too hard to justify your choices by denigrating other gear and you really don't need to, spam the forum with how much you love the products that you enjoy, I'm all for that, believe it or not I'm genuinely happy that you love your setup, I love it when people are enjoying their gear even if it's not my preference, just stop with the picking apart of other products to affirm your preferences.

You say "no diss of Rotel",

Wow so reading around about the Rotel DX-3, it has a bunch of "quirks" that should not exist at £under £1k let alone at its £1.5k price.

1: The remote control is sluggish to respond and volume increments holding the button down do not work
2: The UI isn't too intuitive
3: FW updates require one of these and isn't included in the box (!?!?!)
4: Look a the upgrade process(!)

This is what you do, you love your LX8 which should be enough (I think it's a really good headphone amp bty), but you find a competing product and start your denigration campaign, in your head it's just observations but in reality it's more than that, and this is a product you've not even used yet personally!!

To be honest I think in todays market it's pretty hard to choose a wrong product, we're at an amazing point in history in terms of audio products and choice, especially with the recent race to the bottom with price to performance products giving 'traditional' brands a kick up the bum, and I say that as someone that still gravitates towards those traditional brands.

And regarding ASR, why do you need to even have that fight? take a breath and think about that for minute, what's your goal? it's a science based forum where opinion is heavily weighted on measurements, there's something to be said for internalised joy and the silent feeling of fulfilment rather than the reliance of your fulfilment to be based upon external opinions and beliefs, it shows a distinct lack of self confidence, joy, or rather contentment comes from believing in yourself and loving what you do without the need for constant affirmation and validation from others.

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Any who, in other news regarding the LAiV Crescendo VERSE AMP/DAC I don't think LAiV have publicly/officially announced this but they are releasing the Crecendo BEAT soon which is their LPS to go with the VERSE, will be a nice little stack, atheistically at least, whether it will improve it audibly speaking will be another matter.

 

[mrk]

I don't know how you saw that as a diss, it was pointing out an objective fact, FW updating using that cable and not supplying the cable is pretty poor, the UI quirks are another one given the price tag as is the convoluted FW update process once you buy one of the cables. There isn't a single reasonable mind that would disagree there.

 

[BF-Bert]

I don't know how you saw that as a diss, it was pointing out an objective fact, FW updating using that cable and not supplying the cable is pretty poor, the UI quirks are another one given the price tag as is the convoluted FW update process once you buy one of the cables. There isn't a single reasonable mind that would disagree there.

You can actually update the Rotel USB to USB.

 

[Timber]

Was watching Zeos's latest video on his channel and it's vlog style coverage of CanJam New York. Loads of stuff covered, but I noted Fiio have a few incoming bits.

Apart from the Darkside PSU they had a K17 R2R (supposedly based on there new R2R internals), there was their new power amp from speakers and another R2R pro amp. Pretty cool stuff and I imagine some this will likely be at the London show will actually prices and release dates know by then.

Would link but on mobile atm.

 

[mrk]

New R2R internals sounds interesting.

Also on the note of high res audio, this was good:

Edit* Just incase anyone points a finger, yes, no spoilers

 

[Timber]

New R2R internals sounds interesting.

Kinda does. Although if you go through the Fiio 2026 head-fi thread it's a lot of products as ever and difficult to track stuff, but it looks like this R2R Pro internals are referenced in a few places;

K17 R2R (as shown very briefly on Zeos's video) and a Warmer Pro, but this isn't expected until March '27 and will attempt to combine the 'core' functionality of the K17 + Warmer with this new Pro chip into an all-in-one unit. It isn't clear the exact differences, although I'd guess the K17 R2R is just the R2R ladder in a K17 and the Warmer Pro is the R2R ladder + tubes. Also noticed there are other products like the Warmer Nano and K13 (non-R2R) mentioned. Although hidden in the thread there looks to be a new gaming product, which I think is good news.

Desktop Gaming Headphone Amplifier KG13
The KG13 is also FIIO's entry into the gaming audio peripheral market in 2026. In fact, many people have been using FIIO desktop headphone amplifiers for gaming for a long time. Players on the North American esports team, Lazarus, have used the E10K with their headphones.
Moreover, the gaming audio market is far larger than the HIFI market. Of course, there are many competitors, and doing well is not easy. We will have a long-term plan, taking it step by step, striving to provide high-quality, cost-effective products for a wide range of esports enthusiasts.
Currently, the KG13 is tentatively scheduled for release in September, priced under RMB1,000.

Also with regards to that video being in the land of the free; Linux again I actually learnt the K13 R2R lights up yellow when playing 96000hz which is cool.

 

[mrk]

"The JT7s are a fantastic headphone" - Z is right

Just finished the video, only a cameo with no intro to the new fiio stuff shown there, guess I will see them in London in the summer.

Yeah the K13 colours change depending on the audio format/rate - If you set a custom colour then the colour stays fixed to that regardless of format.

I see Sendy Audio has a new VU meter headphone amp from that show too, $1500 though for only 1W output with an ESS DAC seems a bit much for that.

 

[Timber]

Yeah the K13 colours change depending on the audio format/rate - If you set a custom colour then the colour stays fixed to that regardless of format.

Yep. I think they all do it and I remember years ago testing very high sample rate files to make my old K5 Pro go yellow, or green etc. It just shows how entrenched I am in 44.1k or 48k sample rates that I don't see that colour change more often.

 

[mrk]

Tbh if you're using ASIO or exclusive mode then you would almost always see 44.1 or 48 anyway. I use exclusive mode in all music apps now as well as MPC-HC so music or movies, it's always 44.1 or 48 respectively.

I don't buy into the whole 24/192 etc being "better" as some pockets online seem to swear by having not that long ago back to back compared TIDAL/Quboz and Spotify, the latter which only goes up to 24/44.1. My Windows sound stack is set to 48KHz 32-bit though since bit depth is headroom, and 90% of what I consume on PC is video so makes sense to stick to 48 here for stuff using the Windows sound stack.

 

[Timber]

Tbh if you're using ASIO or exclusive mode then you would almost always see 44.1 or 48 anyway. I use exclusive mode in all music apps now as well as MPC-HC so music or movies, it's always 44.1 or 48 respectively.

I don't buy into the whole 24/192 etc being "better" as some pockets online seem to swear by having not that long ago back to back compared TIDAL/Quboz and Spotify, the latter which only goes up to 24/44.1. My Windows sound stack is set to 48KHz 32-bit though since bit depth is headroom, and 90% of what I consume on PC is video so makes sense to stick to 48 here for stuff using the Windows sound stack.

Yep I'm set to the same. As I understand it's one of the benefits of 96k is DVD/BurRay audio soundtracks, but that's not something I use.

Although being back on Linux on my main PC I've been playing around with ALSA (hardware-level audio access, exclusive mode etc.) and Pipewire (modern sound server) and the need to use exclusive access is lessened as far as I can tell. With Pipewire I can set is up to receive 44.1k from Spotify, Fooyin (local music player) etc. but also 48k from Librewolf, VLC, or whatever video software is playing. It can auto switch between 16-bit and 32-bit playback as required. Pretty cool really and works very well in terms of low-latency audio and passing the audio straight to the USB audio DAC/AMP.

 

[Timber]

On another audio topic, I was browsing Youtube last night and bumped into @mrk video on USB audio delay. Thank you for the mention in the video btw.

I read in the comments for that video someone who had the Fiio KA15 and the Fiio Windows Driver and they still experienced a delay despite enabling the setting. Since buying the Fiio K15 in January and using it with Windows 11 it too suffered from the audio delay even with the driver setting enabled to 'always on'. Now I do have both the K13 R2R and K15 connected via USB so I don't know if there was something wrong with my driver installation, or whether using the two devices in question stop the setting working (although I don't think so as you can toggle between the two DAC/AMPs in the driver). And I didn't take note if the K13 also had the delay becuase I only really use that as a DAC for my Xduoo tube amplifier so it's never being used for speakers.

The K15 is slower to start-up when powered on, which I think is due to the software it uses for the touchscreen, visualisations and streaming etc. and therefore it's a much more complicated DAC/AMP. And moving this PC over to a Linux Installation (CachyOS) I'm experiencing the audio delay as well, but I'm happy to live with that for now. However it makes me wonder if the Windows 11 driver fix isn't as simple as a straight toggle that works on all devices; i.e. the device needs to use a certain XMOS chipset, or something else.

 

[mrk]

I had the K13 and WARMER connected at the same time at some points before giving the K13 to my brother, no delay on either. I do know Fiio fixed a number of issues or quirks on the K13 that existed on the K15 so I guess they used the K15/17 as test beds in some way much like they launched the DX5 II with a lot of issues that took months of FW updates to properly address whilst some issues still remain with that model like the random dying 4.4mm jack.

The same XMOS USB controller is used on many DACs too it seems too.

 

[Timber]

I had the K13 and WARMER connected at the same time at some points before giving the K13 to my brother, no delay on either. I do know Fiio fixed a number of issues or quirks on the K13 that existed on the K15 so I guess they used the K15/17 as test beds in some way much like they launched the DX5 II with a lot of issues that took months of FW updates to properly address whilst some issues still remain with that model like the random dying 4.4mm jack.

The same XMOS USB controller is used on many DACs too it seems too.

The K15/17 are so advanced on the software side that they mini computers in a way so understandably more prone to issues/bugs as the software gets more in-depth. Looking it up the K15 and K13 share the same XU316 USB chip but the Fiio website doesn't list the KA15 USB chipset. It just made me think there's devices, or scenarios (i.e. user error, botched Windows installs, multiple devices etc.) where the Windows driver fix might not work.

 

[Timber]

Regarding the Fiio K15 I noted that Zeos has finally released his review of it [Youtube Link]. Needed that four months ago.

Again there's some mistakes such as saying the K17 doesn't include a remote and saying things like the screen is better on the K15 (they are the same), but overall he likes it. Seeing him talk about the MCU being on V42 made me realise upgrading the two firmwares; V142 & MCU V43 I haven't had that speaker not start-up issue again I mentioned on here before. So I suppose that's an example of where being late to something is better, i.e. more mature software. I also remembered that the Fiio K15 support page mentions an XMOS USB upgrade, but there's nothing these. I wonder if this is why I had the delay issue on Windows.

On another note I also bumped into a new Joypad called the ASUS Raikiri 2 which has not long launched and seems to build on their existing Raikiri/Pro models. And what's interesting is that the older ones mentions an ESS DAC. I know we've had cotrollers on here on PC (Gamesir) that do that but I thought it was quite interesting that the marketing makes a big thing of it, albeit they may have dropped the point for the newer one. I do think having controllers on PC that can do audio is cool, albeir I suppose most people use wireless in those scenarios. Problem for ASUS is there's so many good, cheap joypads out there now this problem has been solved, but that's another topic.

 

[mrk]

I asked Fosi Audio for a set of the IM4 IEMs as they look rather interesting, so it seems those are on the way along with that desktop visualiser thing ZEOS seems to have in various reviews, just a cool looking desk novelty lol.

 

[Timber]

I asked Fosi Audio for a set of the IM4 IEMs as they look rather interesting, so it seems those are on the way along with that desktop visualiser thing ZEOS seems to have in various reviews, just a cool looking desk novelty lol.

That's cool. Reading the specs for it, it seems it can run off USB 5V so at least doesn't take up a plug socket, or need to be wired into an audio chain. I've seen they also do one of these more vintage stule VU meters that ca double up as a switcher between AMPs and speakers, but that's a lot ore work to incorporate into a setup (as well as taking up a plug socket etc.).

 

[mrk]

Yeah I will power it from one of the spare USB ports on the back of the monitor, makes it super easy.