Get Rich or Die Young

Soldato
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Ok so I've borrowed the thread title from the link below, but it seems to be the case in modern Britain.

Sad story incoming;

The life expectancy gap between rich and poor people in England has been widening for nearly two decades.

The rich stay healthy longer. The poor die younger.

That bleak assessment is based on national data.

Stockton-on-Tees is the town with England's biggest gap in life expectancy, according to Public Health England, and resident Rob Hill, who is only 46, is getting ready for his death.

A lifetime of cigarettes and poor food have taken their toll and Rob has numerous health problems including emphysema, lymphedema and type 2 diabetes.

Rob lives in a divided town.

In Stockton-on-Tees, those living in the wealthier areas can expect to live as much as 18 years longer than those in the more deprived parts of the town.

It reflects a national problem.

Nationally, on average, a boy born in one of the most affluent areas of England will outlive one born in one of the poorest parts by 8.4 years.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-44985650

I originate from the NE (I was born in Stockton actually) and I see it being played out in towns like Middlesbrough and Stockton, I also have some mates up there that are insanely obese and ill in their 40's but I admit to be struggling with the reasoning above, it's clearly a reality but why?

Smoking costs a small fortune, you have to be earning a small fortune to smoke these days. I don't think its a case of rich being healthy vs poor being unhealthy. It makes me wonder if theres something else at play.

Thoughts?
 
Smoking is much more common amongst, to quote a senior figure from a tobacco company, the poor and stupid. That alone would account for a lot of the difference in average lifespan. Rich and stupid doesn't count as much - smoking is a very low class thing. That also makes it a cultural factor, changing peer pressure significantly.

Cheap food tends to be less healthy, so wealth is an indirect factor there too.

Wealth buys better healthcare, including preventative healthcare. That would also make a difference.

People who make poor life choices often damage both their wealth and their health.

That too, though the lack of social mobility shows that it's far from being only a choice.
 
That too, though the lack of social mobility shows that it's far from being only a choice.

True, I'm certainly not saying everyone has an equal chance to be rich. However people who make poor choices increase their chances of being poorer.

I disagree with the healthy food being more expensive, it is perfectly possible to eat healthy on a very limited budget (especially by cutting down on meat as plenty of poor people used to do in the past) though it does require a bit more effort/planning. Then again I guess lazy people are also perhaps increasing their chances of both being unhealthy and being poor.

Likewise I'd hope it would be obvious that I'm not inferring that being on a low income means someone is either lazy or makes poor life choices and frankly it is perfectly possibly to be on a low income and to look after yourself. Perhaps some people are quite content with their position in society too.

Poverty in itself can pose additional health risks - stress etc.. (though certainly not confined to the poor) will perhaps have a big impact. While money doesn't necessarily buy people happiness it can certainly eliminate lots of potential sources of unhappiness.
 
Theres definitely a cultural factor at play but smoking and junk food / ready meals are expensive if consumed regularly. The guy in the above link has 8 kids and smokes, that can't be cheap.

On the flip side exercise costs very little in comparison. I'm absolutely not having a dig at people in that situation and absolutely not everyone has access to the same opertunities but I'm left feeling (sadly I admit) that for some there's a bigger link with laziness / motivational issues to being poor and unhealthy.
 
[stuff I don't disagree with]

Poverty in itself can pose additional health risks - stress etc.. (though certainly not confined to the poor) will perhaps have a big impact. While money doesn't necessarily buy people happiness it can certainly eliminate lots of potential sources of unhappiness.

That makes me think of another health risk linked to poverty - employment. Badly paid jobs tend to be unhealthy jobs, sometimes deliberately because of social norms. For example, repeated prolonged periods of standing are unhealthy. That's well known and has been for at least all of recorded history. The first modern medical paper on the subject was published over 300 years ago and there have been many since. The evidence is overwhelming and the fact is well known - it causes pain in the short term and chronic circulatory and musculo-skeletal problems in the mid and long term. It's a custom in this country for people in low-status jobs to be forced to stand while working regardless of circumstances. Even if the work could be done as efficiently when seated. Even if the work could be done more efficiently when seated. Even when the work involves using equipment specifically designed to be used from a seated position. Harming people in low-status jobs so that the resulting pain and chronic medical problems rub their face in their inferior status is usually considered more important to a business than profit. The only change recently has been to restrict or remove sick pay so that poor people can't take time off when they've been harmed enough. Why care? There are always more peasants to hire.

Then there's the harm done by not caring, as opposed to malice. For example, people stacking shelves in supermarkets. They won't have knee protection, though they should. Kneeling on a hard surface while moving is a hazard and over time it will do harm. But why would a supermarket "waste" money buying that protection for its peasants? Or even think about doing so? Or allow them time to fetch it and put it on if they pay for it themselves? Why care?

Then there's the harm inherent in many manual jobs, which tend to be badly paid or at least less well paid. The exercise is beneficial, but the repeated physical stresses aren't.

Or unemployment and poverty, which brings other health problems. The stress you refer to is one, but there's also the hopelessness. The highest plausibly attainable goal is a crap job that controls their life and damages their health and which only exists because they're cheaper than a machine. Not exactly a fine recipe for higher levels of a hierarchy of needs. Maslow wouldn't give that scenario high marks, that's for sure. They have a lower status than a medieval peasant because a medieval peasant served a useful purpose in their life - they produced food or something else that was useful. So I'm pretty sure there's a link with mental health, which causes a link with physical health.
 
Interesting topic. I have a couple of views.

Firstly and whether you like it or not people of like disposition tend to pool together. I am no city person but it's obvious that in cities you have the poorer areas and vice versa mainly due to your finances. That's not going to be a popular thing to say to some. Some see it as classism and it probably is.

Secondly you have herd mentality, kind of tribalism really. The smiths next door have xyz car so maybe we should have one also, it's competitiveness or really COVETING after something you don't have.

Thirdly you have personal choice based on the information and influences presented to you during you life, for example Rob almost certainly knew that smoking and eating junk food would more than likely result in an early and painful death.

Unfortunately the more you choose the wrong way the more you lose your sense of reality and become set in your ways, essentially hopelessness.

So overall who is to blame.

1) The system of money we live under
2) The personal choices we make
3) The British class system
4) Bad teaching/information that results in poor choices
5) Other(including personal demons, natural sickness
6) The luck of the draw(fatalism)

Rob could have been as healthy as anyone, doing triathlons, speaking at conferences, helping out in his local area, enjoying life to the max.

Circumstances always default to fate vs free choice. An age old debate that has probably caused wars and divided nations.

So is Rob truly to blame for his early death or is he a victim of uncontrollable circumstances.

I'll let you decide.
 
Too many kids, poor diet, smoking drinking.
Brought up like that so continue.

It isnt health care, its culture and attitude.

It's my opinion is culture that is by far and away the biggest factor passed on down the generations. You have to break out of that as an individual and its obviously not easy.

Overweight, lots of kids, poor diet.. You probably haven't made good life choices. But you need self control to stay in shape, not have to many kids etc.

You can easily see how humans could eventually become two species in the UK due to lack of mixing
 
Sum it all up.

Sins of your fathers -> Natural guilt -> Ignorance -> Imposed guilt -> Temptation -> Poor choice -> Personal guilt -> Foolishness -> Greed -> Hopelessness -> Misery -> Regret -> Destiny.
 
Then there's the harm done by not caring, as opposed to malice. For example, people stacking shelves in supermarkets. They won't have knee protection, though they should. Kneeling on a hard surface while moving is a hazard and over time it will do harm. But why would a supermarket "waste" money buying that protection for its peasants? Or even think about doing so? Or allow them time to fetch it and put it on if they pay for it themselves? Why care?

I've mixed feelings and mixed experiences on this aspect - a lot of places will make provisions for stuff like that if someone asks but aren't forward with making it available.

I also have a bit of a different position to a lot of people I think in that I will happily buy my own equipment and take personal responsibility for stuff like that (upto a point - I wouldn't expect to be lumped with the costs of core PPE, etc. while working for someone else).
 
He would be a lot richer if he didn't have 8 kids and a stupidly expensive habit.

Surely you would sort yourself out before getting to that stage?

walking is free, and eating healthy doesn't cost the earth
 
A guy at work lives on coffee, cigarettes and buscuits....(not an exaggeration ive never seen him eat so much as a sandwhich) hes currently off sick for his 3rd week in a row.
 
I think it's a great shame that we're letting the poor down. Let's be clear - the quality of housing for these people also has a dramatic impact on their lives, and even more so, the quality of education provided to them.
 
A guy at work lives on coffee, cigarettes and buscuits....(not an exaggeration ive never seen him eat so much as a sandwhich) hes currently off sick for his 3rd week in a row.

Our previous MD's son used to live on Redbull and Fags 99% of the time, maybe an odd chocolate bar in there, then he used to complain of being tired all the time hence the redbull :-\

If you need redbull to keep awake, you're 100% the type of person who doesn't need to be drinking redbull!
 
Why is it that people on a modest income with mortgage etc will only have 2 children because even they know they can't afford to have more unless they cut down on other areas like treats and holidays. Yet poor folk who have no money or may only earn minimum wage will pop out 3, 4 or even 5 sprogs then carry on complaining they are poor while smoking knock off cigarettes and drinking themselves through a 24 slab of Carling. If they kept the reproduction to a minimum they might have more money at the end of the month.

I don't blame people for earning minimum wage, I blame the employers for only paying it and expecting the rest of the tax payers to pick up the bill for benefit payments.
 
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