Getting back into it

philyb · 3 Sep 2020 at 03:10

Hey folks, I used to work as a junior SQL developer for a little under a year but that was now almost 7-8 years ago, to cut a long story short, I came from a very working class background and never had the opportunity to travel, so I decided to teach English for a few years, traveled to Australia etc to various degrees of success. However, as I approach my mid-30s, I want to settle down in this country, so I am exploring various options.

The issues I face are - I essentially did not finish my third year, as I had secured the above job because it was a inward move in the NHS, apart from doing my Dissertation, which is the reason I got a degree as I got a really high mark for it. I'm unaware, but if I got average marks, I'd have got a 2:1 or a first if I was really lucky. So every job I do, I'd have to explain this. Not to mention I was a glorified support officer at times due to NHS cutbacks at the time, so I'd be doing multiple jobs at once and sometimes my "junior developer" job was nothing of the sort.

The second issue is that, I have almost no portfolio, that includes my dissertation which was essentially sent into the void when Megaupload was shut down and my back ups were wiped on both my work servers and uni servers. Not only that, but the only coding I have done has been teaching others coding, which while I was able to remember a lot, I realised while teaching it, that quite a lot of it I had pretty much forgotten off hand.

My questions

What would I do in the next year to prepare myself and show that I can still work? Would a job in IT support help while I build a Github portfolio? I've considered the cyber security route too, it is something I'm interested in after taking an "ethical hacking" udemy course.

Would finishing university really been relevant? Should I perhaps consider "finishing" it part time? I do not think so, as some of the most successful people I know in the industry never even touched programming in university.

Would a year as really be all that? Not only that, but I genuinely have no contacts at that company anymore, I asked for a reference and there was no one who I worked under there.

Any advice is appreciated.

Thanks.

JonJ678 · 3 Sep 2020 at 03:36

I'm confused by the degree bit. It reads like "I dropped out, but if I didn't, probably would have passed" which seems a bad thing to lead with on a CV.

A degree is helpful but not necessary for finding work in software. A portfolio is likewise helpful but not necessary. With neither, you're down to finding someone to give you a chance based on not much. Probably worth writing things for said portfolio.

philyb · 3 Sep 2020 at 03:49

JonJ678 said:
I'm confused by the degree bit. It reads like "I dropped out, but if I didn't, probably would have passed" which seems a bad thing to lead with on a CV.

A degree is helpful but not necessary for finding work in software. A portfolio is likewise helpful but not necessary. With neither, you're down to finding someone to give you a chance based on not much. Probably worth writing things for said portfolio.

It confused me too when the degree popped up in the post! It is actually far more complicated - but to sum it up, I had an internship back in 2008/2009 which was rescinded because of the financial crash at the time. So I was **** out of luck for a year, they said take a year off or return to University immediately (which would have been silly in dissertation year), I was able to secure employment with the NHS and managed to move my way up to a programmer position. During this time, I returned to university for the final year - I'd already finished my dissertation during my years off, so I only made amends to it based off what my professor told me and handed it in, which scored fairly high marks. However, I didn't finish most of the modules of the final year but the marks from the second year on top of the dissertation qualified me for an ordinary degree. I had every intention of finishing, however I learned way more on the job than I had done in two years of university and it was well paid. So it's somewhere between dropped out and graduated.

Ironically, if I hadn't got the degree, I'd have stayed in programming as the traveling would mostly be out for me due to a lack of a degree.

A degree is helpful but not necessary for finding work in software. A portfolio is likewise helpful but not necessary. With neither, you're down to finding someone to give you a chance based on not much. Probably worth writing things for said portfolio.

I don't really expect anyone to give me a chance like that, I'm talking about in a year or two. I plan another year or two of teaching, which should give me enough money to essentially do anything I want training wise. I just need to choose the right options this time.

Energize · 4 Sep 2020 at 17:41

I'm really confused, did you get a degree or not?

If you got a degree over 10 years ago I can't see the classification coming up in an interview nor should you mention it on your cv.

philyb · 4 Sep 2020 at 19:12

Energize said:
I'm really confused, did you get a degree or not?

If you got a degree over 10 years ago I can't see the classification coming up in an interview nor should you mention it on your cv.

I did get Software Engineering in 2012/2013, it was an ordinary but I never did the final year EXCEPT hand in my dissertation (that was very highly marked) which I'd already completed. I did a year in the industry, but honestly I didn't enjoy it and I'm just weighing up my options now.

I'm considering having a look at getting in at the bottom of the IT Support part of the industry, cyber security seems a ways off for me.

Dave M · 4 Sep 2020 at 20:56

Do you want to get back into IT after a decade travelling and teaching?

You've built up experiences and skills in that decade that have far more relevance than the role or qualifications you had before you left. If it's really what you have your heart set on though the degree classification isn't really an issue at your age, but you need to spin your experiences into qualities relevant to the role you are applying to now.

Do not rely on the degree and experience from many years ago.

philyb · 5 Sep 2020 at 22:12

Dave M said:
Do you want to get back into IT after a decade travelling and teaching?

You've built up experiences and skills in that decade that have far more relevance than the role or qualifications you had before you left. If it's really what you have your heart set on though the degree classification isn't really an issue at your age, but you need to spin your experiences into qualities relevant to the role you are applying to now.

Do not rely on the degree and experience from many years ago.

True enough, I guess I'm just trying to look at my options. I'm actually leaning towards getting in at an entry level support position with possible progression, when it comes to programming, I'm not sure I have the drive or passion to do it professionally, but at this point, I'd feel the need to get some training on that front, so I've been searching around as you do.

HangTime · 6 Sep 2020 at 00:06

Just put your degree on CV, if you get asked for the classification be honest, but you don't need to broadcast it. I don't put my classification on my CV because it's a bit out of kilter with the reset of my academic performance (I have very good GCSEs, A-levels, and a Masters degree achieved some years later, but my BSc result was poor by comparison).
No point going back to 'finish it' given you graduated already
If you want to get back into an SQL type role, you probably don't need a portfolio, it's less relevant than e.g. webdev
For references just locate a generic HR contact email address, this may be available on their website or you might be able to hunt down an HR rep on LinkedIn and make a polite enquiry
Cyber Security is a good field to get into. Given you have some sort of data background, consider Data Science also if you are good at maths/stats.

philyb · 7 Sep 2020 at 06:36

Thanks for the advice fellas, does anyone know about some training courses? I always see CompTIA+ and MS certifications recommended? I simply don't feel all that confident going into the job market with my only experience in that field being my degree and junior developer work 7 or 8 years ago now, especially since I'm leaning towards more IT support and engineer work rather than coding.

dowie · 7 Sep 2020 at 22:19

Ah - so your dissertation and/or whatever you did complete in third year (maybe just dissertation if it was 60 credits) was enough to get the 300 credits required for an "ordinary" non-honours degree (240 credits from 1st and 2nd year + 60 credits from completing half the first year).

So basically, for the people who are getting a bit confused by this, you don't have an "honours" degree, not a 1st, 2:1, 2:2 or 3rd... but rather you have a non-honours "ordinary" degree - sort of in between a foundation degree (just the first two years) and the honours (completing all 360 credits at any level of pass).

If you've not got anything else going on at the moment then you could rectify the above and build your skillset at the same time... I mean if you're looking to do some training courses anyway then why not look at the open university or perhaps Birkbeck or London international program or anywhere else with flexibility - if it isn't too long ago then you could transfer your 240 credits from 1st and 2nd year and take some OU third year modules to complete your degree - get yourself a 2:1 or a 1st and you then have way, way more options career wise.. further study at MSc level for one.

Just having a browse here and looks like they have a few paths essentially:

http://www.open.ac.uk/courses/computing-it/degrees/bsc-computing-it-q62

For example you're interested in software development so:

http://www.open.ac.uk/courses/computing-it/degrees/bsc-computing-it-software-q62-soft

So looking at that structure - if you were to take that third year across two years part time then perhaps register for the two core modules this year - since they cover the sort of skills you're looking to work on anyway in order to get back into the workforce - software engineering and web, mobile, cloud technologies:

http://www.open.ac.uk/courses/qualifications/details/tm354?orig=q62-soft

http://www.open.ac.uk/courses/qualifications/details/tm352?orig=q62-soft

And then next year pick your optional module, say data analysis or networks/comms or whatever and your project (only 30 credits for this degree it seems) and you'll have your BSc... by studying mostly stuff you were perhaps going to study anyway..

I mean if you've got nothing else to do and you lack a (full, honours) degree then that seems like a no brainer, especially if you've part-completed one and only need to finish it off with the last 1/3rd.

I don't think you could use the fact you've completed half the 3rd year btw... there will no doubt be rules etc.. and I suspect you will have to do an entire 3rd year with a particular institution at least, though worth asking.

Other things to look at in addition - the MOOCs from the usual providers - udemy can be cool but it is quite an open marketplace, others like coursera, edx and udacity provide courses from known universities and large companies... you get a certificate too (not that it is going to be considered the equivalent of formal academic study but it still).

Udacity nanodegrees might also be useful here - they've got various topics including straight up software dev... becoming a so called "full stack" developer etc...

https://www.udacity.com/nanodegree

philyb · 8 Sep 2020 at 19:49

dowie said:
Ah - so your dissertation and/or whatever you did complete in third year (maybe just dissertation if it was 60 credits) was enough to get the 300 credits required for an "ordinary" non-honours degree (240 credits from 1st and 2nd year + 60 credits from completing half the first year).

So basically, for the people who are getting a bit confused by this, you don't have an "honours" degree, not a 1st, 2:1, 2:2 or 3rd... but rather you have a non-honours "ordinary" degree - sort of in between a foundation degree (just the first two years) and the honours (completing all 360 credits at any level of pass).

If you've not got anything else going on at the moment then you could rectify the above and build your skillset at the same time... I mean if you're looking to do some training courses anyway then why not look at the open university or perhaps Birkbeck or London international program or anywhere else with flexibility - if it isn't too long ago then you could transfer your 240 credits from 1st and 2nd year and take some OU third year modules to complete your degree - get yourself a 2:1 or a 1st and you then have way, way more options career wise.. further study at MSc level for one.

Just having a browse here and looks like they have a few paths essentially:

http://www.open.ac.uk/courses/computing-it/degrees/bsc-computing-it-q62

For example you're interested in software development so:

http://www.open.ac.uk/courses/computing-it/degrees/bsc-computing-it-software-q62-soft

So looking at that structure - if you were to take that third year across two years part time then perhaps register for the two core modules this year - since they cover the sort of skills you're looking to work on anyway in order to get back into the workforce - software engineering and web, mobile, cloud technologies:

http://www.open.ac.uk/courses/qualifications/details/tm354?orig=q62-soft

http://www.open.ac.uk/courses/qualifications/details/tm352?orig=q62-soft

And then next year pick your optional module, say data analysis or networks/comms or whatever and your project (only 30 credits for this degree it seems) and you'll have your BSc... by studying mostly stuff you were perhaps going to study anyway..

I mean if you've got nothing else to do and you lack a (full, honours) degree then that seems like a no brainer, especially if you've part-completed one and only need to finish it off with the last 1/3rd.

I don't think you could use the fact you've completed half the 3rd year btw... there will no doubt be rules etc.. and I suspect you will have to do an entire 3rd year with a particular institution at least, though worth asking.

Other things to look at in addition - the MOOCs from the usual providers - udemy can be cool but it is quite an open marketplace, others like coursera, edx and udacity provide courses from known universities and large companies... you get a certificate too (not that it is going to be considered the equivalent of formal academic study but it still).

Udacity nanodegrees might also be useful here - they've got various topics including straight up software dev... becoming a so called "full stack" developer etc...

https://www.udacity.com/nanodegree

That's some really good advice, if I do try to finish my degree though, I'm leaning more towards going into teaching and getting a PGCE, which I'd need at least a 2:2 from what I've been told. However, if I had to a dissertation again, I'd probably struggle big time, as that was the culmination of a few months real life, programming work - I'd learned more in six months working than five years in education. At the moment, I'm still planning another year abroad and let the job market settle for a year or two.

I actually e-mailed them a year or two back about this, but they told me to contact the university, who told me to contact another department because I'd "accepted" the classification of the degree, I don't know what that means because I got the degree in the post and was very very surprised. The Udacity stuff is interesting too, I've done Udemy courses (ethical hacking is where I became interested in cyber security) too, but don't quite know how to translate that into an entry level position, I'd happily take a basic first line support job. Ideally, I'd be doing something like that, wouldn't mind looking into MS certification, but not sure where to start. I've considered boot camps too.

dowie · 8 Sep 2020 at 20:15

I'd assume a dissertation in this case, if it's just some 30 credit thing, isn't going to be too much more than a small project and big essay.

philyb said:
I actually e-mailed them a year or two back about this, but they told me to contact the university, who told me to contact another department because I'd "accepted" the classification of the degree, I don't know what that means because I got the degree in the post and was very very surprised.

You're a bit muddled here - I don't see what relevance accepting a degree or not from your other university has here - the only relevant bit is that you've potentially got up to 240 credits you could transfer to say the OU or Birkbeck or wherever and then just complete a third year in CS or similar and get a full honours degree. That just requires an official transcript AFAIK.

Whether you do go onto a PGCE (they're quite intense AFAIK so maybe not a good idea if you struggled to complete an undergrad) - just having a degree is useful in itself...

IMO much better use of your time to complete a degree that you're basically 2/3rds of the way through anyway (if becoming a developer is the goal) than spending time and money on some vendor certificates etc... leave those things to the support guys.

Energize · 8 Sep 2020 at 20:41

Open Uni can be quite iffy about credit transfer to anything other than an open degree, I had 210 credits I wanted to transfer from a Comp Sci degree to their computing degree but they said based on their assessment they would only allow 120 credits to be transferred. Call be cynical but I think they wanted the $$$. On their website it says if you want to study a different subject they will only allow a transfer of 60 credits so varies a lot unfortunately, but an Open Degree as you say is still a full honours degree, if you put in brackets Open Degree (Computer Science) BSc like I do, it's not considered an issue.

http://www.open.ac.uk/study/credit-transfer/my-ou-qualification?path=a

dowie · 9 Sep 2020 at 00:48

Energize said:
an Open Degree as you say is still a full honours degree, if you put in brackets Open Degree (Computer Science) BSc like I do, it's not considered an issue.

Ah that's interesting... in fact, perhaps that would be a better solution for @philyb if he's concerned about the dissertation... like if you can just do 120 credits of any modules then he could just do say the 60 credits core modules for the computing(software track) and then just pick another 60 credits of CS or similar modules the year after... no dissertation requirement, get a full honours degree and do what you do - BSc (hons) Open (Computer Science).

also if you have an academic e-mail you can sign up to github education and you get 3 months free access to www.datacamp.com Bunch of programming related courses there (granted mostly data science focused)

philyb · 9 Sep 2020 at 02:26

dowie said:
I'd assume a dissertation in this case, if it's just some 30 credit thing, isn't going to be too much more than a small project and big essay.

You're a bit muddled here - I don't see what relevance accepting a degree or not from your other university has here - the only relevant bit is that you've potentially got up to 240 credits you could transfer to say the OU or Birkbeck or wherever and then just complete a third year in CS or similar and get a full honours degree. That just requires an official transcript AFAIK.

Whether you do go onto a PGCE (they're quite intense AFAIK so maybe not a good idea if you struggled to complete an undergrad) - just having a degree is useful in itself...

IMO much better use of your time to complete a degree that you're basically 2/3rds of the way through anyway (if becoming a developer is the goal) than spending time and money on some vendor certificates etc... leave those things to the support guys.

It wasn't so much that I struggled to complete undergrad, it was just that I never had motivation to do so as I'd secured employment and a job better than a lot of my peers at the time. So a PGCE has always been an option, as I've really enjoyed teaching the past few years and even did volunteer teaching for refugees.

Oh and yeah, you're right, I am a bit muddled about it, I had a look at my previous e-mails and you are correct. Thanks again.

I'm actually starting to think that tech support would be something I'd be happy being in on the entry level, then moving into something else down the line. As much as I'd like to get back into coding, I've found I lack motivation and passion that I once had. Hence, why I'd like to explore maybe some of the certificates that'd get you into tech support or much engineer based, then looking at cyber security courses down the line. I'm basically explroing every option, I thank you for the post above again as it has given me a lot of information and food for thought.

Energize said:
Open Uni can be quite iffy about credit transfer to anything other than an open degree, I had 210 credits I wanted to transfer from a Comp Sci degree to their computing degree but they said based on their assessment they would only allow 120 credits to be transferred. Call be cynical but I think they wanted the $$$. On their website it says if you want to study a different subject they will only allow a transfer of 60 credits so varies a lot unfortunately, but an Open Degree as you say is still a full honours degree, if you put in brackets Open Degree (Computer Science) BSc like I do, it's not considered an issue.

http://www.open.ac.uk/study/credit-transfer/my-ou-qualification?path=a

Cheers, I did-email them a year or so back when I was considering a PGCE, but financially it wasn't possible then and I got to agree, they were very iffy about it. Not only that, but I partly feel like paying on a reputable boot camp would be a better option, personally, for me as I tend to do better in face to face environments - should I decide to go back into coding. I know boot camps can be a bit of a toss up, but when I taught in Edinburgh for a few months, i taught coding for a few weeks and met two or three people who'd started at a local boot camp and done fantastically well for themselves.