Getting the best out of your mp3's

Man of Honour
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Hi there, I was wondering what sort of setup would work best when streaming mp3's from my pc. Would two speakers be best coupled with an amplifier? Is it important to have a decent soundcard?

I have £800 to spend on a new setup but dont want a dedicated cdplayer/amp. Can music streamed via your pc sound as good? Basically any advice on getting the best out of my mp3''s would be great.
 
What bit rates are the mp3's encoded in?? If its below 320kbs then they will really sound bad on any half decent setup.

I got a Marantz pm7200 amp going to B&W 602 s3 Speakers fed via my (silent) PC using an Creative Aud 2zs Soundcard and I always encode my cd's on WMA lossless ( gives approx 400megs per cd ) as I can't tell the difference between that and the origional cd, but if I play mp3's at say 128kbs then omg they sound awful.

I wouldn't spent £800 on parts if your going to be putting in low bitrate mp3's.

Babyface UK
 
babyface uk said:
What bit rates are the mp3's encoded in?? If its below 320kbs then they will really sound bad on any half decent setup.

I got a Marantz pm7200 amp going to B&W 602 s3 Speakers fed via my (silent) PC using an Creative Aud 2zs Soundcard and I always encode my cd's on WMA lossless ( gives approx 400megs per cd ) as I can't tell the difference between that and the origional cd, but if I play mp3's at say 128kbs then omg they sound awful.

I wouldn't spent £800 on parts if your going to be putting in low bitrate mp3's.

Babyface UK

I see. Interesting that (anecdotal) results from blind tests completely disprove what you have just said.

To the OP: Take a look at the sticky at the top of the forum. If you want good quality sound you will need a good quality amp as well as speakers.

£800 should get you a very, very impressive setup indeed :)
 
DRZ said:
I see. Interesting that (anecdotal) results from blind tests completely disprove what you have just said.

To the OP: Take a look at the sticky at the top of the forum. If you want good quality sound you will need a good quality amp as well as speakers.

£800 should get you a very, very impressive setup indeed :)


So you say that a mp3 encoded at 128kbs sound's just as good as the origional CD on the same set up? ( me thinks not ).

Babyface UK
 
babyface uk said:
So you say that a mp3 encoded at 128kbs sound's just as good as the origional CD on the same set up? ( me thinks not ).

Babyface UK

I've watched an investigation on that and it was a band listening to their own record. It was played on vinyl, CD and MP3 @ 128kbps. Using a high end setup, they were unable to determine which was the MP3, however, they chose vinyl as the worst (yet I love a bit of vinyl).

Personally, I think it depends on the genre of music. Classical I can notice the difference, same with some heavy rock, but other types I can't.
 
Mikol said:
I've watched an investigation on that and it was a band listening to their own record. It was played on vinyl, CD and MP3 @ 128kbps. Using a high end setup, they were unable to determine which was the MP3, however, they chose vinyl as the worst (yet I love a bit of vinyl).

Personally, I think it depends on the genre of music. Classical I can notice the difference, same with some heavy rock, but other types I can't.

I seem to be hearing 2 different camps here, I can tell the difference, to me its like seeing a video then dvd of the same film, dvd wins everytime. But then others have posted above to the contrary so for the OP can I suggest that you can try to borrow a amp and speakers from someone else or get a loan from a hifi store and see for yourself,

Babyface UK
 
babyface uk said:
I seem to be hearing 2 different camps here, I can tell the difference, to me its like seeing a video then dvd of the same film, dvd wins everytime. But then others have posted above to the contrary so for the OP can I suggest that you can try to borrow a amp and speakers from someone else or get a loan from a hifi store and see for yourself,

Babyface UK

Exactly. I'm not disagreeing with you, I can tell the difference, but I think it entirely depends on the genre. Again, I guess it depends on what the OP intends to listen to.

I think 128kbps is the threshold. I can sometimes tell the difference between 128 & 320, but definitely any lower than 128 and it's painful.
 
To add a bit more detail, and I was part of DRZ mp3 testing,
128 sounds pants to everyone on any set up..... BUT once you get over 192 the difference between each mp3 files becomes harder to tell...yes some music compress better than others.
BUT
....to me no mp3 when burnt back to a CD was as good as the orginal CD when played on a High Quality system.
I would conclude for most people you CAN get a "good" sound from a mp3 file, use 320 to get the best from it you can.....
BUT
......It needs to be played on good kit, personaly I don't rate a PC as good kit.... I think to do the best you can you need a sound card with SP/DIF output, then use an external DAC. Plug that into a good intergrated amp and some decent speakers, and you then might have an ok set-up.
If you have the orginal CD's I would recommend a CD player, and use the original disc.....

So as an idea with second hand items on amps and speakers.....
PC with sound card with SP/DIF £?????
DAC £150 (Perhaps a Monica 2 DIY DAC.....mines on order to try out)
Amp £200(Look at Arcam, Cyrus, Audiolab....etc etc)
Speakers £200-300(Look at the main brands in dealer to find the sound you like).
 
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9designs2 said:
To add a bit more detail, and I was part of DRZ mp3 testing,
128 sounds pants to everyone on any set up..... BUT once you get over 192 the difference between each mp3 files becomes harder to tell...yes some music compress better than others.
BUT
....to me no mp3 when burnt back to a CD was as good as the orginal CD when played on a High Quality system.
I would conclude for most people you CAN get a "good" sound from a mp3 file, use 320 to get the best from it you can.....
BUT
......It needs to be played on good kit, personaly I don't rate a PC as good kit.... I think to do the best you can you need a sound card with SP/DIF output, then use an external DAC. Plug that into a good intergrated amp and some decent speakers, and you then might have an ok set-up.
If you have the orginal CD's I would recommend a CD player, and use the original disc.....

So as an idea with second hand items on amps and speakers.....
PC with sound card with SP/DIF £?????
DAC £150 (Perhaps a Monica 2 DIY DAC.....mines on order to try out)
Amp £200(Look at Arcam, Cyrus, Audiolab....etc etc)
Speakers £200-300(Look at the main brands in dealer to find the sound you like).

Nice idea but you have spent most of his budget on the audio side and left nothing to buy his pc with (after paying for the soundcard)

I am not knocking what you have said, apart from it being a little elitist with external dac etc and very decent speakers

I have an ancient sony stereo amp with a couple of very ancient sony bookshelf speakers - nothing great i grant you but plugging my ipod into the amp produces as good a sound from a 5mb mp3 as it does from the seperate cd player

I know spending £150 on B&w or the like speakers and about the same on a decent stereo amp will prooduce high rewards ( plus cables and interconnects) but if My old kit can produce as good an experience as brand new £40 headphones that are well thought of by many - I cant be doing badly

I am currently awaiting delivery of a shuttle to replace my ipod permanently in this setup and will no doubt burn most of my cd's again to a higher bitrate ( probably 192kbs or so) but to be honest its pretty difficult to tell ( depending on what you listen to) the difference unless you go really low bit rate (imo)
 
9designs2 said:
To add a bit more detail, and I was part of DRZ mp3 testing,
128 sounds pants to everyone on any set up..... BUT once you get over 192 the difference between each mp3 files becomes harder to tell...yes some music compress better than others.
BUT
....to me no mp3 when burnt back to a CD was as good as the orginal CD when played on a High Quality system.
I would conclude for most people you CAN get a "good" sound from a mp3 file, use 320 to get the best from it you can.....
BUT
......It needs to be played on good kit, personaly I don't rate a PC as good kit.... I think to do the best you can you need a sound card with SP/DIF output, then use an external DAC. Plug that into a good intergrated amp and some decent speakers, and you then might have an ok set-up.
If you have the orginal CD's I would recommend a CD player, and use the original disc.....

So as an idea with second hand items on amps and speakers.....
PC with sound card with SP/DIF £?????
DAC £150 (Perhaps a Monica 2 DIY DAC.....mines on order to try out)
Amp £200(Look at Arcam, Cyrus, Audiolab....etc etc)
Speakers £200-300(Look at the main brands in dealer to find the sound you like).

Would a DAC help my setup, PC ( Creative Aud2zs) to Marantz pm7200 to B&W 602s3 via £5 per metre cable whos name I can't remember.

Ta
Babyface UK
 
babyface uk said:
Would a DAC help my setup, PC ( Creative Aud2zs) to Marantz pm7200 to B&W 602s3 via £5 per metre cable whos name I can't remember.

Ta
Babyface UK

Yes. Absolutely.

Obviously the gains are going to be limited by the source (as well as the amp and speakers) but you ought to notice a transformation.

There is the DIY DAC route, Monica 2 etc or you can go for something like a Meridian 203 / Deltec Precision Audio DAC / Canmbridge Audio DACMAGIC 2 at the cheaper end or something like a Chord / TagMaclaren / Musical Fidelity and or if you can find one a Mark Levinson Number 36.

Lots of choice to be had for sub-£500, thats for sure :)
 
FrankJH said:
Nice idea but you have spent most of his budget on the audio side and left nothing to buy his pc with (after paying for the soundcard)

I am not knocking what you have said, apart from it being a little elitist with external dac etc and very decent speakers

I have an ancient sony stereo amp with a couple of very ancient sony bookshelf speakers - nothing great i grant you but plugging my ipod into the amp produces as good a sound from a 5mb mp3 as it does from the seperate cd player

I know spending £150 on B&w or the like speakers and about the same on a decent stereo amp will prooduce high rewards ( plus cables and interconnects) but if My old kit can produce as good an experience as brand new £40 headphones that are well thought of by many - I cant be doing badly

I am currently awaiting delivery of a shuttle to replace my ipod permanently in this setup and will no doubt burn most of my cd's again to a higher bitrate ( probably 192kbs or so) but to be honest its pretty difficult to tell ( depending on what you listen to) the difference unless you go really low bit rate (imo)


The OP did no make clear a new PC was required .....
Plus it's all relative.....What one person feels is a good sound, another may feel is low quality, and doesn't meet there expectations. The OP again ask best they can do with mp3's.... Actually I could have suggested much higher and above budget..... ;)
It also depends on what someone has heard before, if you never heard a high quality set-up then it's not possible to image what extra can be achieved. maybe safer/cheaper not to !!!!!
The examples are by most HiFi standards good "budget" items.... sadly people seem to have the idea that because a high street store will knock out a complete system for £99, that quality now does not cost much.... it always has and always will...
If quality is not important, than neither is the choice of kit, they all make the same noise don't they !?!?! ;)

Adding a DAC takes the critical digital to analogue conversion away from the PC box which is bad environment for audio.
Sorry for the rant :D
 
128kbps mp3 is hideous compared to the original cd.

i go no less than 192kbps when creating mp3s.

Its especially noticable in the treble areas, i.e. hi hats, symbols etc.
 
9designs2 said:
The OP did no make clear a new PC was required .....
Plus it's all relative.....What one person feels is a good sound, another may feel is low quality, and doesn't meet there expectations. The OP again ask best they can do with mp3's.... Actually I could have suggested much higher and above budget..... ;)
It also depends on what someone has heard before, if you never heard a high quality set-up then it's not possible to image what extra can be achieved. maybe safer/cheaper not to !!!!!
The examples are by most HiFi standards good "budget" items.... sadly people seem to have the idea that because a high street store will knock out a complete system for £99, that quality now does not cost much.... it always has and always will...
If quality is not important, than neither is the choice of kit, they all make the same noise don't they !?!?! ;)

Adding a DAC takes the critical digital to analogue conversion away from the PC box which is bad environment for audio.
Sorry for the rant :D

Maybe I mis understoop OP when he stated "new setup" thought he meant pc and audio, rather than just audio..........

As I originally stated I have no issue with your original post, my ancient equipment cost around £700 when I bought it new, however its now worht around £50 :D

thats why I put in the "approximation" of decent £40 headphones from an ipod so it can be compared to other people's experiences of their ipod or equivelant.

I know full well that a pc isnt that great environment for audio being an electronics engineer by education and trade, but to be fair to spend nearly 25% of the budget on a DAC at this price level I would have thought putting more into either the speakers or amp would be better spent (after all we are only talking mp3's)

The motto of all this is that you can "lose" just as much performance by getting a decent prided and performance amp and speakers and setting them up wrong as you can by buying a budget amp/speakers and setting it up well - if that makes any sense
 
DRZ said:
Yes. Absolutely.

Obviously the gains are going to be limited by the source (as well as the amp and speakers) but you ought to notice a transformation.

There is the DIY DAC route, Monica 2 etc or you can go for something like a Meridian 203 / Deltec Precision Audio DAC / Canmbridge Audio DACMAGIC 2 at the cheaper end or something like a Chord / TagMaclaren / Musical Fidelity and or if you can find one a Mark Levinson Number 36.

Lots of choice to be had for sub-£500, thats for sure :)

OK noob time when talking about DAC's, what do they do / replace from the Aud 2zs soundcard, how would I wire it up between soundcard and Marantz pm7200 amp, and any other info you think I need. Would need to be approx shoe box shape as thats all I have room for on my rack, or very skinny so it can go on its side rould the back.
Perhaps a different sound card would help?
Looking at about £100 - £150 max so any linkys that can be posted hear would be apprieciated.

Thanks

Babyface UK
 
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DAC is an acronym, standing for Digital to Analogue Converter. For the purposes of this post, I wont go into any more technical detail about what exactly "Digital" is (its not as straightforward as you would think!) and cut to the chase.

Your software will output a digital bitstream which gets sent to the sound card. Inside the card there is a chip which takes that bitstream and decides what that information means and outputs it as an analogue waveform.

The number of bits the DAC has is important as more bits = more levels = smoother output waveform. In order to make this even better, most DACs oversample - they take the bitstream and sample it again, hundreds of times. This has the effect of making the sidebands much further apart so a gentler reconstruction filter can be used. This increases the sound quality massively.

Cheaper DACs have poorer reconstruction filters, poorer error handling and a few other bits oand bobs that are noisier inside the chips themselves.

By outputting the digital stream untouched you can use an outboard DAC that is MUCH better than the one onboard. In this case, your sound card becomes largely irrelevant unless you are using optical :)

For £150, I would be looking at something like the Meridian 203 or DPA dac, both can be found on the bay for around the £150 mark. 203s are FAR more common than the DPA units.
 
DRZ said:
DAC is an acronym, standing for Digital to Analogue Converter. For the purposes of this post, I wont go into any more technical detail about what exactly "Digital" is (its not as straightforward as you would think!) and cut to the chase.

Your software will output a digital bitstream which gets sent to the sound card. Inside the card there is a chip which takes that bitstream and decides what that information means and outputs it as an analogue waveform.

The number of bits the DAC has is important as more bits = more levels = smoother output waveform. In order to make this even better, most DACs oversample - they take the bitstream and sample it again, hundreds of times. This has the effect of making the sidebands much further apart so a gentler reconstruction filter can be used. This increases the sound quality massively.

Cheaper DACs have poorer reconstruction filters, poorer error handling and a few other bits oand bobs that are noisier inside the chips themselves.

By outputting the digital stream untouched you can use an outboard DAC that is MUCH better than the one onboard. In this case, your sound card becomes largely irrelevant unless you are using optical :)

For £150, I would be looking at something like the Meridian 203 or DPA dac, both can be found on the bay for around the £150 mark. 203s are FAR more common than the DPA units.
the meridian 203 looks interesting,or the MUSICAL FIDELITY X-ACT 18 BIT DAC on the bay but I see it has 1 opitcal input that looks like phono input, so how do I wire this from the sound card to the dac.

Ta

Babyface UK
 
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babyface uk said:
the meridian 203 looks interesting, how is it wired from sound card to DAC?

Ta

Babyface UK

You have a choice of optical (fibreoptic cable) or Coaxial (like a normal interconnect)
 
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