Going to try watercooling. Inevitable questions to ask I'm afraid

JonJ678

JonJ678

JonJ678

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Hey. This is my first attempt, so I'm aiming to keep it simple. Only putting an 8800gt underwater for this loop, would like a reservoir since I think this will make my life a bit easier.

Intended plan is reservoir -> pump -> rad -> card though I doubt the order of rad and card matters. I'll probably be using 11/8mm tubing as the gpu block has compression fittings for this size.

The radiator I'm looking at is the quiet power swiftech 120.1, any guesses how well this will do at cooling the gpu? It'll have a 1600rpm scythe s-flex pushing air through it from the outside of the case but will be mounted internally [I assume case : fan : radiator but know nothing about shrouds]
I'm concerned about the 3/8" barbs fitted to the rad as I would have liked compression fittings, and I'm not convinced by fitting 11/8mm tubing onto 3/8" using clamps. Reckon I'll be alright here or would moving to 3/8" tube be a much better call?

Finally, I've seen this http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=WC-007-XS
which is a combined bay res and pump at 25 quid. This is very cheap, so presumably quite rubbish, but will it cope reliably and effectively with an 8800gt and a radiator?

I'd very much appreciate any input, a part of me is still screaming that water and electricity should be distant

Jon
 
Wait for MikeTimbers to post, because his sig has a link to the WaterCooling Guide in it.

To answer your questions more specifically, the 8800GT isn't the hottest card in the world so the 120.1 QP rade should be absolutely fine.

Compression fittings make life a lot easier, even if they are more expensive, and give the user that much more assurance that there won't be a leak. However, new iteratiosn of the Swiftech radiators should come with G1/4 threads, allowing you to use whatever barbs/fittings you want. I've got them on my 120.3 QP, so... saying that, I'm using a Laing DDC pump which has 3/8 barbs on it, together with 10/8mm tubing (lots of hot water required) and it fits like heatshrink (i.e. very tightly) once cool.

Shrouds are used to improve the stand-off between fan and radiator and supposedly remove the deadzone that exists in the centre of the fan, where it is not moving any air. Do you need them? Probably not, but the option is there is you would like it.

Penultimately, the pump/res thing you linked to will probably be ok - it won't be very good as you have supposed yourself, but it will work. I would suggest splashing out on a separate pump (the seminal Laing DDC should be fine) and as cheap a res as you can find to match.

Finally, the same "ooh, don't use water in there!" argument could be made for watercooling anything: powerplants, car engines, chemical processing plants, etc. but they manage very well, regardless. The key thing is to take your time with the build and leak-test it properly before flicking the system power switch. Do that, and you should be fine. IF you're going to rush it, not check all the fittings and not leak test it, then you will get everything that comes to such an approach and shouldn't have tried it in the first instance.

Don't get lured in by expensive (and largely pointless) non-conductive fluids. Whilst they do work, they're at least 20x more costly than distilled/deionisted water from from your average supermarket. Simply use deionised water, mixed with a little corrosion inhibitor (purple ice, or even a bit of anti-freeze) and you'll be absolutely fine.
 
Strange how quickly plans change. It now looks like I'm going to take a long time on water and attempt to do it properly. I take it soldering brass and copper together won't lead to terrible corrosion problems?

One thing is that the main few blocks out all seem to perform within a few degrees of each other. This suggests to me that a well designed one is capable of transferring however much heat the water can hold. I think this gives me some leeway, but as my favourite design so far appears to be identical to that of one of their north bridge blocks I fear it will be inadequate.

I guess that leads me to what are the important design parameters for a cpu block? Surface area in contact with water maximised, resistance to coolant flow minimised, base thickness minimised?

The current favourite design is to mill parallel slots over a square that corresponds to the size of the processor, and have an inlet and outlet at either end of this. Nice fast laminar flow, but I'm no longer convinced that's what I need from this block.
The overall design I had in mind was blocks on sb, nb, cpu, mosfets, all aimed at minimising resistance to flow. No reservoir or t line. Rational being that it should be possible to send water through this (+120.2 rad of some sort) very quickly to make things very cold.

My best guess is that a high flow rate, low resistance loop will make little noise but not cool things terribly well.

^and that really is the most coherent I can be at this time, g night :)
 
JonJ678 said:
Strange how quickly plans change. It now looks like I'm going to take a long time on water and attempt to do it properly. I take it soldering brass and copper together won't lead to terrible corrosion problems?

One thing is that the main few blocks out all seem to perform within a few degrees of each other. This suggests to me that a well designed one is capable of transferring however much heat the water can hold. I think this gives me some leeway, but as my favourite design so far appears to be identical to that of one of their north bridge blocks I fear it will be inadequate.

I guess that leads me to what are the important design parameters for a cpu block? Surface area in contact with water maximised, resistance to coolant flow minimised, base thickness minimised?

The current favourite design is to mill parallel slots over a square that corresponds to the size of the processor, and have an inlet and outlet at either end of this. Nice fast laminar flow, but I'm no longer convinced that's what I need from this block.
The overall design I had in mind was blocks on sb, nb, cpu, mosfets, all aimed at minimising resistance to flow. No reservoir or t line. Rational being that it should be possible to send water through this (+120.2 rad of some sort) very quickly to make things very cold.

My best guess is that a high flow rate, low resistance loop will make little noise but not cool things terribly well.

^and that really is the most coherent I can be at this time, g night :)
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What block were you looking at? EK supreme?

Low resistance blocks will generally have laminar flow, but turbulent flow from impingement type blocks helps to displace the slow moving water at the surface with colder water. If you're going to put 4 blocks in your loop then a low-restriction block is probably the way to go. Btw, are you going to cool your GFX card - seems a bit funny to cool your SB yet not your GFX...

I use an XSPC Edge block myself - lovely block - lots of deep microchannels - very low restriction, but probably very marginally worse in terms of temps than an EK edge or GTZ. Unfortunately they stopped making it due to production issues (spoiling too many trying to mill 0.3mm thick fins I think). Interestingly, EK have introduced the Supreme LT,which is basically a slightly cut down version of the XSPC Edge..

How are you planning to drain/fill the loop?
 
please dont use compression fittings

you need to get 1/2" Dtek Barbs

and 7/16" tubing

that will assure no leaks

a decent block [ek, etc]

a good rad like a 120.1 TFC

and the pump you mentioned should be sufficiant

you would need a bigger pump for more rads/blocks etc
 
Is the argument against compression fittings purely financial?

The radiator I'm looking at is the 240 feser. Well reviewed, and their site actually offers a 3D model of it for download which I'm very impressed by.

'Decent' block is potentially a problem, as I'm planning on making the blocks myself. Not going to make a radiator though, too time consuming and unlikely to lead to good results.

As such, what makes a block decent? Nb I'm basically going to imitate an EK block. For mosfets, I intend a shape 12 x 12 x 48mm ish with a large hole drilled straight down the middle, tubing connected to the ends. Very low resistance, possibly quite crap cooling effect, but so easy to make its worth trying. Sb needs more thought and an idea of what power it dissipates. Cpu block I'm very unsure about.
Before manufacture I think I'll post models on here and see if anyone shoots them down. I may even get around to learning finite element analysis for this project.
 
Guessing you have lots of experience with manufacturing things like this then? Not the sort of thing you'd have the tools for if you'd never done things like this before haha.

Dont see much DIY watercooling these days. Used to be all custom blocks and car radiators haha :p
 
JonJ678 said:
'Decent' block is potentially a problem, as I'm planning on making the blocks myself. Not going to make a radiator though, too time consuming and unlikely to lead to good results.
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What tools are you going to be using? If you have use of a cnc milling machine and the time I'd make an Edge/Supreme copy with a bigger number of deeper and thinner fins, and sandblast afterwards.
 
I'm reasonably confident with metalwork, but this will be my first time with CNC. I have a fairly standard manufacturing lab available, contains lathes, milling machine, band saws etc. The type with an electronic readout for how many mm in each direction from the origin you are.
Adjacent to this is a rather big CNC milling machine that I'll have to beg for time on, and will find out the limits of on Monday. I'd love to believe it can reliably cut 0.2mm fins at 10mm deep, but I rather suspect it wont. I'll ask the lab technicians about its limits tomorrow.


I think the XSPX edge is exactly what I have been looking for! Thank you enormously for mentioning it. Water block manufacturers with clear tops are wonderful. I don't want to touch acrylic with a stick myself, but I'm grateful that other people use it.

Does anyone know of a good reason why every waterblock on the market has the inlet and outlet on the top, rather than on the sides? Greater compatibility with different boards, but introduces a lot of tubing loops. I'm more inclined to put the barbs on the edges of the blocks, and join the blocks together with shorter, nearly straight tubes.

Second, if anyone knows where I can find the chipset mounting hole locations for my board I'd be thrilled, as I've only got a ruler here. Not solved the problem of how to mount blocks yet, but would rather cut the holes from measurement than by using the current block as a template.

Cheers
 
JonJ678 said:
Does anyone know of a good reason why every waterblock on the market has the inlet and outlet on the top, rather than on the sides? Greater compatibility with different boards, but introduces a lot of tubing loops. I'm more inclined to put the barbs on the edges of the blocks, and join the blocks together with shorter, nearly straight tubes.
Click to expand...

I suspect the outlet is a matter of convenience as you suggest.

Cooling may benefit from having the inlet perpendicular to the block base. When water enters the block parallel to the base plate it is highly likely to flow in laminar fashion, not good, but by forcing the incoming flow of water to 'smash' into the base plate you maximise the potential for turbulence, this is good.

Good luck with the block making, I look forward to seeing the results :)
 
JonJ678 said:
I'm reasonably confident with metalwork, but this will be my first time with CNC. I have a fairly standard manufacturing lab available, contains lathes, milling machine, band saws etc. The type with an electronic readout for how many mm in each direction from the origin you are.
Adjacent to this is a rather big CNC milling machine that I'll have to beg for time on, and will find out the limits of on Monday. I'd love to believe it can reliably cut 0.2mm fins at 10mm deep, but I rather suspect it wont. I'll ask the lab technicians about its limits tomorrow.
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If you can get time on it make me one! :D I've just bought 4 x 50mm diameter x 30mm high copper bosses/cylinders that could be put to good use :) - not sure if they'd be big enough for 1366 IHS covering blocks though.


I think the XSPX edge is exactly what I have been looking for! Thank you enormously for mentioning it. Water block manufacturers with clear tops are wonderful. I don't want to touch acrylic with a stick myself, but I'm grateful that other people use it.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's a shame they don't make it anymore - they very occasionally come up second hand on MM (how I got mine). Not sure about the clear perspex tops - they look nice but have a tendency to crack.

Does anyone know of a good reason why every waterblock on the market has the inlet and outlet on the top, rather than on the sides? Greater compatibility with different boards, but introduces a lot of tubing loops. I'm more inclined to put the barbs on the edges of the blocks, and join the blocks together with shorter, nearly straight tubes.

Second, if anyone knows where I can find the chipset mounting hole locations for my board I'd be thrilled, as I've only got a ruler here. Not solved the problem of how to mount blocks yet, but would rather cut the holes from measurement than by using the current block as a template.

Cheers
Click to expand...

Dunno I'm afraid - had enough trouble trying to find 1366 IHS sizes!
 
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Finding mounting holes online doesn't look possible, some point this week I'm going to have to draw around the existing heatsinks.

Couple of things. If anyone has a 10/8mm compression fitting they'd be so good as to measure it would be very helpful. Specifically I need the distance it extends out from the surface of the block, and diameter at widest point. I'm starting to understand why Ek don't make a block for my board, theres about 12mm of height to play with in total.

Second, any thoughts on where I can buy copper bar? Its definitely not going to be a competitor to ocuk so should be fine to post. My local engineering shop only sells aluminium, and is closed today so I can't ask them. Google is not helping much, though I think I found a place for 4 meter lengths of it. If I can't source it then this project suddenly became much more difficult, heat exchangers have no place in a computer

edit: looking into scrap with limited success and have contacted a family member who stands a good chance of having accumulated some over the years
 
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JonJ678 said:
Finding mounting holes online doesn't look possible, some point this week I'm going to have to draw around the existing heatsinks.

Couple of things. If anyone has a 10/8mm compression fitting they'd be so good as to measure it would be very helpful. Specifically I need the distance it extends out from the surface of the block, and diameter at widest point. I'm starting to understand why Ek don't make a block for my board, theres about 12mm of height to play with in total.
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Sure - (have 20 of the things lying around).

Here you go - alphacool 10/8 barbs I think - others may well vary.

1570411a.jpg


61374757.jpg




Second, any thoughts on where I can buy copper bar? Its definitely not going to be a competitor to ocuk so should be fine to post. My local engineering shop only sells aluminium, and is closed today so I can't ask them. Google is not helping much, though I think I found a place for 4 meter lengths of it. If I can't source it then this project suddenly became much more difficult, heat exchangers have no place in a computer

edit: looking into scrap with limited success and have contacted a family member who stands a good chance of having accumulated some over the years
Click to expand...

Ebay's a good bet, but you can probably find other places online easily enough.
 
Good effort on the picture, thats exactly what I was hoping for.

Copper sourcing may be a bit hit and miss. My local stocks 1"x1" bar and various plate. I'll hear back from them today as to whether they can source 2"x1" for me, which I think is probably the size I want to work with. No word from the family member, but he doesn't check email often so I'm not too surprised.

Had a word with the manufacturing guys. I think I'll struggle to get time on the cnc for something so clearly unrelated to academics, but the mills available are pretty solid. We'll see, perhaps doing well by hand on the simpler ones will persuade them.
There are unfortunately fairly inflexible limits on what one can do with a slot cutter. Depth of about 3/2 times diameter being the big one, where I can go deeper but stand a good chance of breaking the bit. This probably limits channels cut to 4mm wide by 8mm deep, so I think I sympathise with ceasing manufacture of the Edge block.

Lovely ductile copper is of course a bitch to machine. Cpu block is going to take a hell of a lot of designing, I think I'll put the northbridge/mosfets (and southbridge if I somehow work out the height issue) under first in the spirit of training myself. I'd better become quite good at this, because I think I'm going to have to order half a meter of copper at a time so need to make many many blocks for years to come. Might even do some mathematics while designing.

Cheers guys
 
This might qualify as a bump, but it's a pretty large update. Small horror in that my psu has died, but aside from that today went reasonably well.
Here we have a list of available materials

It's not financially viable to buy 2" by 1" bar, as the shortest I can get is 500mm at £100 + whatever I'm charged for them buying it in specially. So I have been forced to look at other options.

2" by 1/4" at £49 a meter features heavily in the current design. Think four layers stacked, each with a shape cut out. This neatly solves the problem of milling machines not being able to cut very narrow and deep at the same time, while introducing a nightmare for leakproofing.

Acrylic comes in at £38 per 1/4 square meter. So thats 125cm by 5 cm at 0.5cm thick. Compared with copper at £49 for 100cm by 5cm at 0.6 thick, its got to be the copper really. The problem of how to stick acrylic to copper is a very big one and pretty much unsolvable without introducing rubber gaskets.

Next up, we have copper pipe. 15mm diameter which is rather larger than I'd hoped, and 3m long which is ridiculous for a computer, but at the price of £7. This is the narrowest available, and it was sold out today so I don't know the bore. I'm assuming 11 or 12 mm.

Then, a choice of two readily available solders. £15 for 250g of silver solder, £10 for 250g or normal solder. Both lead free of course. Solder is likely to feature heavily in this build. Silver solder melts at 220 ish, the other at 230ish. This is bad news for me as I had hopes of using an oven to melt the solder. Damn.

Finally. a G1/4" tap is bloody difficult to find locally in England, but I think I've found one close enough in 11.5mm, as opposed to 11.445mm.

So, in summary I still don't want to use acrylic. I'm currently inclined towards 4 layer blocks for the chipsets, drilling 15mm holes in the faces of these and soldering painstakingly bent copper pipe between them. The end result hopefully being a single fused mass that covers nb/sb/mosfets and has only one inlet and outlet, tapped G1/4". Whether the CPU will be in this or not is a difficult question, as it would make changing CPU difficult but the watercooling tidier. Oh, and solder absolutely everywhere.

So, much designing to do. I can now plagarise multilayered blocks of my choice however, which may make life easier.

Cheers
 
JonJ678 said:
This might qualify as a bump, but it's a pretty large update. Small horror in that my psu has died, but aside from that today went reasonably well.
Here we have a list of available materials

It's not financially viable to buy 2" by 1" bar, as the shortest I can get is 500mm at £100 + whatever I'm charged for them buying it in specially. So I have been forced to look at other options.

2" by 1/4" at £49 a meter features heavily in the current design. Think four layers stacked, each with a shape cut out. This neatly solves the problem of milling machines not being able to cut very narrow and deep at the same time, while introducing a nightmare for leakproofing.

Acrylic comes in at £38 per 1/4 square meter. So thats 125cm by 5 cm at 0.5cm thick.
Click to expand...

You can get it for far far less than that from the bay. :)

Compared with copper at £49 for 100cm by 5cm at 0.6 thick, its got to be the copper really. The problem of how to stick acrylic to copper is a very big one and pretty much unsolvable without introducing rubber gaskets.

Next up, we have copper pipe. 15mm diameter which is rather larger than I'd hoped, and 3m long which is ridiculous for a computer, but at the price of £7. This is the narrowest available, and it was sold out today so I don't know the bore. I'm assuming 11 or 12 mm.
Click to expand...

If it's plumber's pipe it'll be half-hard stuff, and is 0.7mm thick-walled, but maybe not if from an engineering place. Half-hard stuff needs a 15mm tube bender I think. You can get 15mm OD/12mm ID soft copper in coils for plumbing boats and motorhomes, but it only comes in 25m or 50m coils as far as I know, and it's very pricey - ~£85/25m coil. It has the advantage the internal bore seems to be just the right size to thread a G1/4 barb into. :)

Then, a choice of two readily available solders. £15 for 250g of silver solder, £10 for 250g or normal solder. Both lead free of course. Solder is likely to feature heavily in this build. Silver solder melts at 220 ish, the other at 230ish. This is bad news for me as I had hopes of using an oven to melt the solder. Damn.
Click to expand...

220-230 should be perfectly doable in a home oven surely?

It depends on the solder - high content silver solder (in the region of 20-55%) melts a lot higher than 220 I think (around 500-600C iirc), and will require a proper big blowtorch (heat dissipates quick quickly from copper, especially thick copper, whereas thin heatfins melt:( )

Finally. a G1/4" tap is bloody difficult to find locally in England, but I think I've found one close enough in 11.5mm, as opposed to 11.445mm.

So, in summary I still don't want to use acrylic. I'm currently inclined towards 4 layer blocks for the chipsets, drilling 15mm holes in the faces of these and soldering painstakingly bent copper pipe between them. The end result hopefully being a single fused mass that covers nb/sb/mosfets and has only one inlet and outlet, tapped G1/4".
Click to expand...

Sounds good, but isn't that going to make the block only usable on the particular motherboard you've got? Quite a lot of effort if it's only going to last until you get another motherboard... Is there no way to have tube going horizontally between the blocks and the blocks threaded for g1/4?

Whether the CPU will be in this or not is a difficult question, as it would make changing CPU difficult but the watercooling tidier. Oh, and solder absolutely everywhere.

So, much designing to do. I can now plagarise multilayered blocks of my choice however, which may make life easier.

Cheers
Click to expand...
 
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