Gordon Murray T50

The aero fan is incredible too. Downforce when you need it and drag reduction when you dont. It can effectively make it into a longtail version by altering the aero, reducing drag by 12%.
 
I watched all the video's yesterday and like many do have a healthy dose of respect for GM..

The only thing I think he's missing is the front styling, the F1 was pretty much state of the art when it launched, the T50 looks a bit too bland from the front for my liking, but then I've found styling wise GM is very stuck in the past and it's no surprise..

Everything else about the car I like, the rear styling, the fan, the interior, and obviously the engine.. If i had the money I'd prefer a good Auto box though, although GM states he doesn't like them, there is nothing wrong with DCT IMO, it can be made to be visceral, but also would really pander to this 'GT' philosophy where it would be effortless when cruising around..

I completely resonate with his engine styling choice, no external belts and the integrated starter/generator is a really good addition..
 
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Haven't had a chance to watch the video yet. I admire Murray's design philosophy, but the styling doesn't do much for me. I generally like form to follow function but it feels like he takes that to extremes and almost likes the fact that it doesn't look dramatic - in the bit of the Metcalfe video that I did watch, he mentioned that it felt like manufacturers had got into a competition to produce the most aggressive looking car and while I know what he means, I think there's a better balance to be found than what he's done here. A slightly more aggressive front end would be a good start!
 
R.P.L said:
Haven't had a chance to watch the video yet. I admire Murray's design philosophy, but the styling doesn't do much for me. I generally like form to follow function but it feels like he takes that to extremes and almost likes the fact that it doesn't look dramatic - in the bit of the Metcalfe video that I did watch, he mentioned that it felt like manufacturers had got into a competition to produce the most aggressive looking car and while I know what he means, I think there's a better balance to be found than what he's done here. A slightly more aggressive front end would be a good start!
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I'm of a different opinion, I love that clean look. I like how the same mantra applies to the interior too - no touch screens, simple gear knob and controls, no "frippery", but at the same time, it's not a stripped out track car.
Not that I'm in the intended market for such cars, nor anywhere rich enough to afford one :(
 
Will Gill said:
Sadly it's Mr BJWW, I have all his videos autoblocked along with supercarbimbo, TGE and his donut topnut brother.
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I've not bothered with the vid in the OP, but the Harry's Garage and Carfection films were both excellent. Covering a lot of the same stuff, but still sat and watched both of them right the way through. Well worth watching with a cuppa.
 
Demon said:
I watched all the video's yesterday and like many do have a healthy dose of respect for GM..

The only thing I think he's missing is the front styling, the F1 was pretty much state of the art when it launched, the T50 looks a bit too bland from the front for my liking, but then I've found styling wise GM is very stuck in the past and it's no surprise..

Everything else about the car I like, the rear styling, the fan, the interior, and obviously the engine.. If i had the money I'd prefer a good Auto box though, although GM states he doesn't like them, there is nothing wrong with DCT IMO, it can be made to be visceral, but also would really pander to this 'GT' philosophy where it would be effortless when cruising around..

I completely resonate with his engine styling choice, no external belts and the integrated starter/generator is a really good addition..[/
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DCT adds to much weight. They are counterproductive in a car which is supposed to be light.
 
Nasher said:
DCT adds to much weight. They are counterproductive in a car which is supposed to be light.
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It might add a bit of weight, but it dramatically reduces the shift times, to a point that it's a huge advantage when it comes to lap times/performance..

Not withstanding that GM states the car is designed to be usable (it has aircon!) having an 'auto' box IMO makes driving longer distances more effortless.. Horses for courses..
 
Nasher said:
DCT adds to much weight. They are counterproductive in a car which is supposed to be light.
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It depends on the transmission and installation. In the case of the Alpine, for example, using a manual would have ended up increasing the overall weight. The transmission itself might have been lighter, but the packaging and supporting parts resulted in increased weight.

Similarly, depending on what transmission you're using, you can end up with a very convoluted system for gear selection – resulting in poor shifter action and feel – which is yet another reason Alpine probably steered away from the manual option.

The only feasible option on the table for it would have been to use an existing manual FWD transmission (instead of the DCT alternative), which would cause a whole mess of shifting-related gripes.

Then there are questions about the integration of driver assistance, comfort and efficiency functions – which are all far easier with a DCT. Lots of loops to jump through, these days...
 
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Conscript said:
I've not bothered with the vid in the OP, but the Harry's Garage and Carfection films were both excellent. Covering a lot of the same stuff, but still sat and watched both of them right the way through. Well worth watching with a cuppa.
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Am watching them now, I quite agree with your comments :cool:
 
Demon said:
It might add a bit of weight, but it dramatically reduces the shift times, to a point that it's a huge advantage when it comes to lap times/performance..

Not withstanding that GM states the car is designed to be usable (it has aircon!) having an 'auto' box IMO makes driving longer distances more effortless.. Horses for courses..
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Yeah, but he specifically stated that he's not really interested in lap times and performance. Driver involvement and enjoyment is the main objective, so if a manual gearbox is lighter and more engaging, and 99% of customers want one, then it's the obvious choice.

Everything is a compromise, and if you told me I could have a superb looking sports car that weighs less than a tonne, with a naturally aspirated V12 that revs to 12K RPM, and unassisted steering, I don't think the minor inconvenience of dealing with a manual clutch/gearbox on a long drive would put me off in the slightest. Nor would knowing that a DCT box would knock 0.5 seconds off my 0-60, because honestly, who cares?

And anyway...surely long distances are when a manual gearbox isn't really a chore anyway? I don't tend to change gears much when cruising along the motorway for hundreds of miles :p
 
Conscript said:
Yeah, but he specifically stated that he's not really interested in lap times and performance. Driver involvement and enjoyment is the main objective, so if a manual gearbox is lighter and more engaging, and 99% of customers want one, then it's the obvious choice.

Everything is a compromise, and if you told me I could have a superb looking sports car that weighs less than a tonne, with a naturally aspirated V12 that revs to 12K RPM, and unassisted steering, I don't think the minor inconvenience of dealing with a manual clutch/gearbox on a long drive would put me off in the slightest. Nor would knowing that a DCT box would knock 0.5 seconds off my 0-60, because honestly, who cares?

And anyway...surely long distances are when a manual gearbox isn't really a chore anyway? I don't tend to change gears much when cruising along the motorway for hundreds of miles :p
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I completely get why people like manuals, I just said if I was buying and I was asked I'd prefer an Auto.. I've got a manual E46 M3 and driven plenty of DCT M2's and M4's and I just prefer the immediacy of the DCT.. I've nothing against anyone wanting a manual for their own reasons, but as someone that has a manual E46 M3, the novelty of changing gear soon wore off (OK, the Getrag box in the E46 is a bit pants) and I much prefer the DCT or even the ZF Auto myself, it makes it more enjoyable.. but again, that's personal and if I was spending £2.36 million and asked what I wanted, I'd go for the DCT..

Mind you I think he said he thought about a compromise of a 'semi auto' sequential box, but faced with that I'd probably go for the manual H pattern..
 
Lashout_UK said:
It depends on the transmission and installation. In the case of the Alpine, for example, using a manual would have ended up increasing the overall weight. The transmission itself might have been lighter, but the packaging and supporting parts resulted in increased weight.

Similarly, depending on what transmission you're using, you can end up with a very convoluted system for gear selection – resulting in poor shifter action and feel – which is yet another reason Alpine probably steered away from the manual option.

The only feasible option on the table for it would have been to use an existing manual FWD transmission (instead of the DCT alternative), which would cause a whole mess of shifting-related gripes.

Then there are questions about the integration of driver assistance, comfort and efficiency functions – which are all far easier with a DCT. Lots of loops to jump through, these days...
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Autos still fail to do what you want a lot of the time though, especially when it comes to downshifting. I might be thinking of another car, but I heard the box in the Alpine is a bit fragile.

Lotus stuck with a manual for their cars and they are no slouch, especially the V6 Exige which is quicker than the Cayman GT4.
 
Nasher said:
Autos still fail to do what you want a lot of the time though, especially when it comes to downshifting. I might be thinking of another car, but I heard the box in the Alpine is a bit fragile.
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A good modern auto won't - the one in my truck I've had 1 instance in 1000s of miles of driving it where it didn't match what I wanted and in sports mode it will get the downshift and even use engine braking absolutely spot on. Some of the cheaper ones in small engine hatchbacks, etc. can struggle a bit but paired up with the right engine absolutely not a problem.

With a bit of practise you can manipulate the auto as well to do what you want in a lot of cases which puts back in some of the driver involvement if you care for it plus you have manual range selection if desired even if that isn't a direct equivalent to manual gears.

I used to look down my nose at auto a bit but the one in my truck has me converted especially for commuting where it surprisingly removes some stress from my day I didn't even know was there.
 
Nasher said:
Autos still fail to do what you want a lot of the time though, especially when it comes to downshifting. I might be thinking of another car, but I heard the box in the Alpine is a bit fragile.

Lotus stuck with a manual for their cars and they are no slouch, especially the V6 Exige which is quicker than the Cayman GT4.
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Nah. Not any half-decent option. And you shouldn't have any qualms about the durability of the transmission in the Alpine. We've leant on them with no issues and Litchfield puts more through them with zero problems. It's a wet-clutch transmission, so you've more margin for error.

Also, Lotus has offered automatic options for decades now – and still does (Evora). A preferable option in some regards, too; it's a forty-hour job to change the clutch in an Evora.

Furthermore, as is the previously mentioned case, the shift action isn't great in the manuals. It's masked somewhat by an extravagant shifter assembly in a lot of cases but there's still no hiding the fact that your input is being transmitted in a convoluted fashion from front to rear.
 
Are we really going to turn this into a manual vs auto debate?

Conscript said:
I'm of a different opinion, I love that clean look. I like how the same mantra applies to the interior too - no touch screens, simple gear knob and controls, no "frippery", but at the same time, it's not a stripped out track car.
Not that I'm in the intended market for such cars, nor anywhere rich enough to afford one :(
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I'm certainly not in favour of lots of spoilers and splitters on a car like this - that stuff's for Imprezas and the like - so you could say I like a clean look as well. The basic shape just doesn't do it for me.

P.S. manuals are better and always will be :p
 
In one of the interviews he commented on that saying the manufacturers could make it subtle like he does, but want big wings and gashes etc because it's basically fashion. It's gone over the top on many modern performance/supercars.
 
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