GRRRRRR!!!!

Soldato
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A while ago I posted a thread about my workplace wanting to use some of my pictures in their brochure. Well in the end nothing came of it because they said my pictures didn’t have spaces in the right place for the text to go... never mind I thought.

Only now I’ve seen a copy of their latest 2007 brochure, one that is published and sent out around the world, containing TWO of my pictures.

Now I know what they're going to say, that it’s a big misunderstanding. I provide them pictures for use inside the school but it was explicitly for non advertising use, so I know they'll say that someone else saw the photos and sent them off without knowing... Still, no excuse. I'm sure it’s the companies’ responsibility to make sure they have the rights to all the images they use at the time of printing.

They know that I know, but I haven’t properly said anything yet. Mainly because I'm quite annoyed and don’t want to say anything that makes it harder for me in the future. What’s the best way of going about it? I was thinking a letter with all the details being sent to the MD along with a suitable bill for the use of the pictures. I'm thinking £200 should cover it.

Another thing of note is that apart from this the company have been quite good to me, a student smashed one of my filters and they helped me get the money from his parents. But i specificly told them that the pictures were only to be used on the notice board, if they wanted to do anything else with them they had to speak to me first.

Oh and of course they haven’t even credited me as a photographer in the brochure.

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If it was me, I'd ignore what they've done in the past to some extent. They asked you for use of your images and they either lied or something went stupidly wrong and they've used them anyway. Send them a letter informing them that you know and you will be looking to claim compensation for infringement of copyright. What's the estimated number of copies for distribution? If its worldwide £200 is way too little imho. The NUJ site may help with fees.
 
It’s a school of English which advertises all over the world, they even have their own television program featuring the brochure in Germany and the brochure is on the companies’ website... I dont know what the actual circulation is, but my guess is a lot! The brochure also advertises schools in the US and South Africa so I reckon the production is in the hundreds of thousands...

Cheers for the link, from a quick look at it it seems I should be asking for more like £700... Would be nice. But my thoughts are if I ask for that much then its going to lead to a long drawn out painful process, where as £200 they might just hand over. If they had asked me to use them I would have asked for £50 per picture with my name.
 
£700 is cheap (for them) if they have printed them all, as they would need to change them all if u pressed them for it?
 
Are you still working for them? How much do you want to rock the boat?

Crow raises a very good point. If you're not still working for them, I'd try and go for as much as you can. You can always negotiate down.

Edit: just did a quick price check for brochure photog for worldwide use and I'd expect to pay in the region of £420 per image for a 3 month, non exlcusive license (I buy photography as part of my job).
 
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Well i dont mind rocking the boat. I'm about to finish working for them anyway and my next work isnt interested in a reference from them. I dont fancy anything long and drawn out though... If they fight paying how far would it go? I dont suppose it would though as they really dont have a leg to stand on, they would need a written contract to prove they had consent to use the images wouldnt they? Or could they claim i agreed verbally?
 
yak.h'cir said:
Well i dont mind rocking the boat. I'm about to finish working for them anyway and my next work isnt interested in a reference from them. I dont fancy anything long and drawn out though... If they fight paying how far would it go? I dont suppose it would though as they really dont have a leg to stand on, they would need a written contract to prove they had consent to use the images wouldnt they? Or could they claim i agreed verbally?
They would need witnesses for a verbal contract.

Like you said, I would right them a letter and ask for atleast £500 minimum, that's petty cash compared to their budget if the brochure is worldwide. If they cuase up a fuss, then take them to the small claims court (for more than £500)
 
Actually, send a solicitors letter to them. It'll only cost you about £20 and they'll see you're no pushover and will probably want to settle rather than get their name dragged through the mud.
 
ElDude said:
Actually, send a solicitors letter to them. It'll only cost you about £20 and they'll see you're no pushover and will probably want to settle rather than get their name dragged through the mud.

Yeh, i have to agree with ElDude, a solicitors letter would probably be the best thing and it's all above board. Hope you get it sorted out ok.
 
If I were you I would def ask for more money, you can always go down in the price but hardly up!
Even if you just told them verbaly that you don't want your pics been published without asking, it is acontract!
If you don't wanna go to a soliciter first just mention in th letter that you would go if necessary!
 
ElDude said:
Actually, send a solicitors letter to them. It'll only cost you about £20 and they'll see you're no pushover and will probably want to settle rather than get their name dragged through the mud.

Agreed. I would take this course of action if I were in the same situation.

Woody
 
An update to this.

I decided to write them a letter myself outlining the issue and asking for £300 for the continued use of the pictures. This request was put in writing by me in the form of a contract.

The manager called me in for a meeting and claimed that because I was working for them at the time I took the photos, they believe they own the full copyrights to any pictures I took. I told them that wasn't the case, and that the copyright remains with the photographer, any transfer of the copyright would have need to be made formally and I had certainly not done this with them. He said he would check this with their solicitor. All though the meeting he repeadly made comments about checking things with the legal team, "i'll just make a note of that incase it goes to court". Obviously trying to intimidate me!!! Which makes me sure they're going to hold out on me.

Anyway, I gave him till Christmas to get back to me, but so far he has not. I've just fired off an email to them asking if their legal team has come to a decision yet. I'm pretty sure they're going to hold firm and claim ownership... So what would be the best step after this?

If I get solicitors/small claims court involved can I claim the money back from the company as well as the fees for the pictures? What happens if I pay out a lot of money, the company sees they're not going to win and then claims they have the letter offering them the photos for £300 and that is all they'll pay.

Also does anyone know of where/what the actual law is regards copyright. I've been searching and not had much luck regards something that would be useful. The only references seemed to be for people contracted to take pictures giving up copyright... I'm basically looking for a statement I can show them explicitly stating that the copyright has to be formally given to them, and not just given to them as my employers.

Thank you in advance for any help/advice!



EDIT
I've been checking out NUJ website and part of the site worries me, it says "Under UK law employees do not own copyright". Now I assume that means people who are employed specifically to take photographs. I suppose i'll try to phone them tomorrow to see if they can clarify it for me but it seems a bit crazy that an employer could claim ownership of something produced by an employee that in no way relates to their contracted job...
 
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**** After reading that it doesnt look good. I really cant believe how crazy that is though! Would the fact we made a verbal agreement to only use the pictures for the notice board affect it? The agreement was made with a manager who recently left the company and we got on well so I think he would not deny the verbal agreement took place.

Thank you for taking the time to find those pages!



EDIT
I have also seen a few references to moral rights regarding copyright. These moral rights apparently include, the right not to have your work subject to derogatory treatment,the right to be identified as the author of your work and the right of privacy for photographs commissioned for private purposes.

I was not identified as the author so is it possible to take action against this?
 
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yak.h'cir said:
**** After reading that it doesnt look good. I really cant believe how crazy that is though! Would the fact we made a verbal agreement to only use the pictures for the notice board affect it? The agreement was made with a manager who recently left the company and we got on well so I think he would not deny the verbal agreement took place.

Thank you for taking the time to find those pages!

Hmmm. Were you working as a photographer or were you doing some other job and just snapping pics for a favour? I think these are explicitly for photographers working for agencies. I'm not really an expert on the fine details, I just have a rough over view. My initial thought is that they could be right.
 
I was doing another job for them that was in no way related to photography. The job involved taking groups to various places of interest so lots of staff had cameras. After my manager saw some of the pictures I had taken he asked if he could get copies to put up on the notice board, I of course said yes, but explicitly said that they were for the notice board only to which he agreed.

I guess I'm going to have to goto a solicitor type who specialises in this area as it looks like its tricky area. I hope the who employer thing is referring to people who are employed to take pictures. And if not that the verbal agreement made would override it...
 
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Contract can be made verbally or just by shaking hands.

Only problem is proving such agreement took place. Also agreement is usually when both parties gain something.

If I said to you, I'm will give you my Canon 30D when I buy Canon 5D then after purchasing the Canon 5D I decide to keep the 30D as a backup camera, you can't sue me for breach of agreement because you don't lose anything.

The photo you took is yours and you own the full copyright and the agreement was to be used notice board. It is the companies responsibility to manage all media and update/change agreement with the client/ownership.

When you signed your job contract, did it say anything about company owning the full copyright to anything you create?
 
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