Happy Pride Day!

[FoxEye]

It's more to do with the fact that for centuries, we weren't able to be proud of who we are and now (in some countries) we are able to be so without fear of persecution. Straight (white) people have never had to feel that way.

I'm afraid that's just plain wrong.

Throughout history (and still today) millions of straight, white people have faced persecution, all around the world, for a whole host of reasons. Of course their sexuality was probably unrelated to the cause of their persecution. And indeed being white may render you less affected to certain types of discrimination.

But one thing we're good at as a species is discriminating against and persecuting each other for the most trivial of reasons. Sexuality is just one of those criteria. Disabled straight white people are discriminated against, as are a host of other straight, white people.

I really wish we could get away from the rhetoric that if you're a "cis white male" you can't have had anything bad happen to you (and you must have some super privilege to boot). It's a toxic narrative that seems to be more and more readily accepted.

 

[MichaelAwkward]

Way to miss the point, maybe I should have been clearer.

Straight white people have never been persecuted, as a group of people, because they're straight and white. They may be persecuted for many other reasons, but that's not what I said. Straight white males in particular are a privileged group and have been basically since history began. That's why they don't get a pride event, because historically they are generally the group orchestrating the persecution of everyone else, including other white people (women, disabled, children, etc.).

 

[Angilion]

[..]
It's more to do with the fact that for centuries, we weren't able to be proud of who we are and now (in some countries) we are able to be so without fear of persecution. Straight (white) people have never had to feel that way.
[..]

Yeah, I see Straight White Pride campaigning and marches all the time and there's never any objection to them. In fact, businesses and the media are eager to show their support for Straight White Pride advocacy.

Oh no, wait, that's the opposite of true.

If you have to say things that are the opposite of true in order to rationalise your position, you really should be reconsidering your position.

Also, why do you think that your sexual orientation is who you are? Are you really nothing else? How does that work?

Way to miss the point, maybe I should have been clearer.

Straight white people have never been persecuted, as a group of people, because they're straight and white. They may be persecuted for many other reasons, but that's not what I said. Straight white males in particular are a privileged group and have been basically since history began. That's why they don't get a pride event, because historically they are generally the group orchestrating the persecution of everyone else, including other white people (women, disabled, children, etc.).

People with irrational prejudices against a group usually blame that group, generally framing them as The Bad Thing in some way. As you have just done.

And now I see how the idea that your sexual orientation is what you are works for you. You're a devout believer in biological group identity and you believe that you're the Bad Thing in terms of sex and "race", so in order to remove yourself from your own idea of the Bad Thing you have to use sexual orientation.

Hopefully one day you will become able to understand the concept of "a person" and thus learn to judge people not by the colour of their skin (or their sex or their sexual orientation) but by the content of their character.

 

[Tefal]

It's only relevant on an individual basis for sex or sexual relationships, in that orientations have to be compatible.

No it "should" only be relevant on an individual basis but it isn't and hasn't been for a long period of living memory for most people.

I mean if you're gay and born before 1987 odds are you have illegally had gay sex at some point.

 

[stockhausen]

Has Happy Pride Day come again?
So soon? It seems like only yesterday, and the day before, and the day before that . . .

 

[Tefal]

Yeah, I see Straight White Pride campaigning and marches all the time and there's never any objection to them. In fact, businesses and the media are eager to show their support for Straight White Pride advocacy.

Oh no, wait, that's the opposite of true..

To be fair he is right though.

When has there ever been a time when people were deliberately oppressed as a group for being straight?

I honestly don't know of any period in history where a culture or government oppressed straight people in law or action.

Would be interesting to know of such a time if you've got a reference?

 

[VincentHanna]

Angilion has it in his head that being a straight white male is the new 'hard mode' in life.

When in fact it's easy mode and always has been.

 

[bowey]

Angilion has it in his head that being a straight white male is the new 'hard mode' in life.

When in fact it's easy mode and always has been.

Oh yes that's right when I was a child I thought yep the strait white male is the easy mode for me, exactly the same as others who didn't chose whom they are attracted to. Gays will always have a hard time regardless of what people do and unfortunately until everyone in the world accepts it, it always will be hard mode. (Which will be never)

 

[VincentHanna]

I didn't say anyone chooses it, I said it's easy mode.

I just have to look at what my other half and sisters go through. So glad I was born a man!

 

[Caracus2k]

I have always found that any group that felt it necessary to make a big public show about their self 'pride' was actually trying to hide some deficiencies.

Whether it's gay pride, black pride white pride etc.....


Let's take one of the most continually and systemically oppressed groups in history. The Jews ..... Sure some Jews are very proud of their heritage but they don't generally find it necessary to make a big show out of it by having a parade or a mass public meeting etc completely with flags, floats banners etc.

Instead they just get on with being a generally rather successful group of people if not one that completely shies away from visibly showing their identity.

And considering that a lot of Jews could be considered 'white males' perhaps some should reconsider their "white males have always been playing on easy mode" comments? But perhaps that's a bit much to ask of them...

 

[Angilion]

To be fair he is right though.

When has there ever been a time when people were deliberately oppressed as a group for being straight?

I honestly don't know of any period in history where a culture or government oppressed straight people in law or action.

Would be interesting to know of such a time if you've got a reference?

I haven't got a reference to something I've never claimed existed. Why would I?

And no, he's not right in his claim that a straight White Pride ideology is extremely popular today. He's utterly wrong about that. It's extremely unpopular today. This is not the era of the KKK in the USA and it's a grotesque deception to portray it that way.

(I'm assuming that the KKK were about heterosexual pride as well as white pride, but I think that's a reasonable assumption).

No it "should" only be relevant on an individual basis but it isn't and hasn't been for a long period of living memory for most people.

I mean if you're gay and born before 1987 odds are you have illegally had gay sex at some point.

Probably - I was born quite a long time before 1987.

I'll clarify my position - sexual orientation is only genuinely relevant on an individual basis, but some people impose an artificial relevance on it for ideological reasons.

 

[Angilion]

Angilion has it in his head that being a straight white male is the new 'hard mode' in life.

When in fact it's easy mode and always has been.

You're projecting your irrational prejudices onto me. Which is par for the course - like most if not all people with irrational prejudices based on group identity you can't understand any other way of thinking and thus assume that anyone who disagrees with you thinks the same way but with the group identities swapped round. A reflection of yourself.

That's not the case. What you think is in my head is nothing more than a reflection of what's in your head. You're looking in a mirror and thinking that the reflection of yourself is someone else.

 

[VincentHanna]

Fair enough

You admit we have it easier than any other gender and race then?

 

[Caracus2k]

Fair enough

You admit we have it easier than any other gender and race then?

Can we clarify what weighting you give to things like living on average three years less then women (down quite a bit on previous figures) , accounting for circa 97% of work fatalities, and more frequently being the the victim of violent assaults?

Men were more likely to be victims of CSEW violent crime than women (2.1% of males compared with 1.3% of females)

In 2014 to 2016, life expectancy at birth in the UK was 79.2 years for males and 82.9 years for females.

97% employees who die at work are men (2009-2014 figures)

I'm sure you know I could list some more.....

Like for example if we were looking at 'races' rather then the sexes then the Japanese fair quite well across a lot of metrics even when compared to groups of whites allegedly on 'easy' mode?

 

[godinman]

Don't forget the vastly increased suicide rate!

 

[dowie]

Fair enough

You admit we have it easier than any other gender and race then?

On what basis? And what do include as a race? Also worldwide or in the UK?

I mean, for example, in terms of earnings it would seem that Asian(at least Japanese/Chinese etc..) and Jewish people have it better? Though you could count Jews as white.

As for gender, depends on the factors you want to account for and how much weight you give them. Is earning a bit less a good trade off for living longer etc..?

 

[Tefal]

Ahh all it takes is on person to say "white" and we've dissapered down the racial and gender rabbit hole.

 

[Angilion]

Fair enough

You admit we have it easier than any other gender and race then?

I don't believe that "we" is a thing. I don't believe in biological(*) group identity. I can't explain that to you because you do.

It's like explaining atheism to a devout theist. They will probably understand the words and they will probably not understand the concept. That's why many of them think that atheism is a religious belief - they can understand the concept of other religions, but not really understand the concept of no religious beliefs.



* I'm judging from context that when you write "gender" you mean "sex".

 

[Diddums]

**** me are you lot still at it? You've shown your hand, the deal is done, neither of you are gonna agree with each other, so why are you still trying? Ain't nobody got time fo dis.

 

[Schizo]

**** me are you lot still at it? You've shown your hand, the deal is done, neither of you are gonna agree with each other, so why are you still trying? Ain't nobody got time fo dis.

I will close the thread now as it's run its course.
Same time next year