Has anyone tried professional career advice?

[Magiccarpet]

I am stuck in entry level customer service. After trying variety of career ideas, all the typical advice, researching and educating myself, going to uni, studying courses on my own, now I am at middle age and no matter what I simply cannot progress beyond entry level customer service.

These jobs are well below my ability and it's so embarrassing but no one is giving me a break. So rather than trying to do something about it and failing yet again would professional (paid) career coaching work. I'm 39 and now have enough money to afford such a venture, and would be interested to hear educated and informed opinions on it. And what my budget should be.

Many thanks

 

[Magiccarpet]

What are they going to tell you? Apply for positions you are suited for. Graft until you get there.

£500 please

That's been my experience with free advice. e.g. Joe Public's take on careers.
Obviously sometimes you can find a job and count on falling into a career path, unfortunately I am not getting that opportunity. The only work I can get is high turnover, low skill, minimum wage. It's impossible to get your foot in the door anywhere and I'm tired of people thinking all you need is tough love and bootstraps. Hence the professional option

 

[Magiccarpet]

Good luck and post your results here for other's benefit. I don't mean to come across as a get on ya bike type but that is what worked for me and pretty much everyone I know...

If the area you live in really doesn't have the jobs and you aren't willing to commute, the obvious answer is to move where there are jobs suitable for you

Honestly I do follow you. In a perfect world you pick a company and just get on with it. Now I'm 40 doing the same jobs at 20. Moved around a bit which obviously hasn't helped. But anyone who meets me can tell these are jobs better suited for young people. It's all a bit of a joke this.

Don't want to spend my life savings to be told to get out there. Still what else is there to do. This shouldn't be that hard. All I want is some more responsibility.

 

[Magiccarpet]

What skills and qualifications do you have? This will give people an idea of what types of careers you're interested in, and what you might need to do in order to get a foot in the door. I.e. No point in someone recommending you get a job in IT if you did a degree in nursing and hate computers.

Most of my skills and qualifications are generally light IT. My best skill is probably analysis, not simply computers but concepts, trends, problems, opportunities. I hold an NVQ and foundation degree in media/graphic design stuff (tried to be a web dev), some SQL, some IT repair courses, a page of general computer qualifications, passed the A+ recently and am working on my N+, aim is the CCNA.

I know that is really poor considering my age but I never had the confidence or the money to do this before. I also screwed up my education. It was a crappy uni but completely my fault nonetheless.

Not trying to be disrespectful either but when you work in customer service-type environments these skills are really useful. People think you are magical computer man when you navigate directories in the command prompt. Last week I saved my supervisor 3 hours of work every week by showing them you can use filters on Excel. Just wait until they see the tracert command in action.

You would think that kind of simple computer literacy would get you around but if anything it gets me more exploited. If I create a spreadsheet template or some primitive application, middle management will throw it around like a toy until they get bored. In CS environments they are always using horrible software. I will master it and everyone else comes to me with problems. Then some contract disaster happens and people get the chop or squeezed out. This happens a lot when you're on the bottom.

Anyway hope you liked my life story but my question is really about if professional advice works. It's all good saying you've got to get out there and just sort yourself out or whatever but at the end of the day I'm in my 40s and all that strategy has got me is back to square one. It's not like I come from an IT or graphic design background and can pull a few strings. I have some talents but have also made some bad choices and don't really have anything solid to offer apart from customer service experience. All I know there is more to life than wearing a headset and saying welcome you're through to customer service 50 times a day. In your 40s.

 

[Magiccarpet]

If you have the relevant qualifications, have you identified what the real barrier is to your progressing? I'm not saying that bad luck/genuine lack of opportunity isn't a factor, but after 20 years it seems likely there is at least one common denominator. For example could any of the following apply?

• You aren't really prepared to take risks and so haven't applied for the right roles, pushed to do more or taken chances when they occur
• You do apply for new roles and responsibilities but don't interview well and so do not get offered the job
• You're good at getting on with the job, but poor at soft skills such as networking, self promotion and general workplace politics that can open doors
• You have serious body odour, weird habits or some other personal issue that clouds how people value you
• You aren't as good as you think you are and your colleagues and potential employers just don't see you as having anything more to offer

These are all fair comments, they're good common sense and things I have seriously considered. But if those are your honest thoughts you need to understand I don't come from the same place as you, that some workplaces aren't very sensible, and when you're trapped in them you're not going to get around easily no matter how hard you try.

This is the main thing that attracts me to getting a professional opinion. I appreciate that another person wants to help but that same person is going to have illusions, biases and knowledge gaps. When you are really stuck down there with no progression prospects at all it is really bad. The last thing you want to hear are the same things that led you to where that place is even if they are well meant.

 

[Magiccarpet]

Would you say that attention to detail is one of your strong points?

Damn! You got me. My real age is 9. Happy now?

 

[Magiccarpet]

In what way are you trapped in the workplace?

A+ Will get you into entry level IT roles like the servicedesk/1st line support/desktop support, your CS experience will help a lot here too. It's not very demanding so you should have time to carry on with your N+ and eventually get a CCNA if you decide it's right for you (if you have some networking experience and knowledge I'd jump straight to the CCNA).

Would you, as an employer, hold the same hiring policy? Would your employer? Any employer you know as such?

This is the entire reason professional advice sounds better. Rather than become contaminated with chest-thumping principles, which I never asked for in the first place, is going to a professional careers advisor a good idea?

 

[Magiccarpet]

Just blast out the applications for 1st/2nd line IT support roles in medium/large size organisation. Unlike a lot of applicants for IT roles you have a strong background in customer service which is what they often want, for these type of roles they do not want IT expertise, they want people who can speak to the user, log faults, follow a script, do some basic triage and fix common problems. The key thing is providing the employer is big enough they will have opportunities to progress into more senior support roles and then beyond that potentially into non-support IT roles.

I have got out there. In the last several years I've applied to several thousand jobs, this year only 200. If you're telling me to just get a customer service job and work my way up, that's been my strategy for 20 years, working hard, making friends, never made any serious mistakes, received written praise, volunteered, have awards in volunteering, studied, hold plenty of qualifications, next year I'm 40, and still the only places that will hire me are entry level, no experience required, customer service jobs with no progression opportunities. My focus for this and next year is to stop the applications and start figuring out what is going so wrong. This isn't decent, let alone fair, I'm way too old and experienced to be working these gigs, no one is invested in coming to my aid or wants to give me a chance so why not pay money to get help is my thinking.

Aggressively pursue new opportunities that are different from what you currently do and maybe out of 50 job applications you get 8 interviews and one offer.

That's common sense, jobs don't get handed to you on a plate, but I am talking about one interview every 2, 3, 400 applications and rarely getting to the second stage or a reply. I've had doors literally slammed in my face or been laughed at in my face, a couple of times companies have interviewed me literally to take the ****, this isn't about playing the poor me victim but it's hard to convey how difficult my position is, people can get really nasty to you when you're on the bottom and being exploited all the time isn't much fun either.
And again my intention is to talk about professional career advice rather than myself. I think the more you interrogate me the more brutal it will start to look. Applying to more jobs and crossing my fingers that anything will pull through isn't my plan anymore and I want to build an approach with more quality.

Alternatively, feel free to PM me, and we can have a deeper chat. I started where you are, moving through various corporate roles across HR and reporting, through data strategy and am in the process of transitioning now to a senior leadership role with a new employer (which after being with the same one for nearly 20 years is a little daunting). I've had the advantage of people mentoring me, both formally and informally, and it can really help. Mentoring isn't like coaching or training, there's more of a personal relationship so finding the right mentor who works well with you isn't always straightforward, but it really can help.

Thank you Dolph, that's nice of you to offer. I appreciate what you're saying about mentoring. In the same vein it's a little suspicious to me. I'm perfectly capable of thinking for myself and developing my own ideas. However my experience with mentoring is quite limited and they don't usually offer programs or pathways as such if you work in customer service. All the best in your new role.

 

[Magiccarpet]

The thing is that a professional giving advice is likely to come with all those things. They're not going to know every area of every market. Which is why the advice on here is absolutely invaluable, as mentioned above, you have people from all over the country (and even globally), who come from a wide range of backgrounds and professions.

How do you know this - have you tried professional advice? What evidence are you working from. People already make a lot of (not very nice) assumptions about me because of my job.

You mention Customer Service, what sector is that in? In some posts it sounded like you were doing 1st line IT type work, helping people with software/systems, but then in another it sounds like you're in a call centre which the likes of Vodafone might use. Some better detail could be helpful.

What's your success rate from applications to interviews? Do you use recruiters or always apply direct? Also what feedback do you get when being turned down for jobs? Also where in the country are you?

Good guess, it's similar to telecoms. What more detail do you want, however? It's a coordinator position in a customer service department. You log problems, get chased, a lot of "I demand to speak to your supervisor" kind of calls when you've done your job, that kind of work. It's £9.30 an hour, you can't get a skilled position through it. I tried asking the technical team about vacancies a while back and they laughed and said "But who's going to train you up then?" and that was the end of that conversation.
My success rate is about 0.5-1% for interviews, much lower for offers. I go for a wide selection of recruiters and direct employers, and through every major job website. The feedback people give is usually very generic and sketchy, random stuff like "didn't make much eye contact", when I did, or very aggressive, like the one time they literally shouted at me over the phone "What gave you the impression we were offering you a second interview!" when they offered and later withdrew a second interview offer. Getting honest help with my CV is another really major issue. There are free services but they don't help much and you don't qualify if you have a job. Online forums have never generated feedback. Basically no help.

With respect, I'm going to be a little bit blunt here, your reply to Hangtime and your response to me contradict each other in my eyes. The fact that you are applying for so many jobs and getting nowhere despite having good paper qualifications (you're better qualified on paper than I am, and I'm only 43, so it's not a huge age/opportunity gap) tells me that something is wrong with what you are doing. Whether it's your CV that is stopping you getting past the initial applicant sift, or something in your interview technique that is dropping you down the list, there is definitely something.

Your direct approach is appreciated. Still, you are also making assumptions. How do you know for sure, that there is "definitely something"? If you constantly ask me questions, you're eventually going to uncover some shortcomings in my ways. Are you going to cherry-pick those and put the blame on them? I'm not flawless. You are working off intuition, not evidence. And just because I'm paid so little and have such a crappy job, it doesn't mean that I'm stupid, lazy and evil. It's rubbish being written off all the time.
Anyway thanks very much for your input but I would really like to steer this conversation towards what experiences people have had with professional advice and how it has guided them if possible please. Thank you

 

[Magiccarpet]

I'm not making assumptions about you, I'm making observations based on the information you are providing. I'm not assuming there is something wrong in the way you are applying for roles, the data speaks for itself. You also appear to have a significant chip on your shoulder, and that is noticed.

How does the data speak for itself? What data are you considering? These are just my words. You could have a spreadsheet of every job application I've made in the last 2 years, that would be data. Instead you have applied judgement without receiving evidence. After a day of talking you think you know me. No one has ever said I have a bad attitude or a chip on my shoulder. My reviews are usually excellent. One of my fortes is making anybody laugh. Forums and e-mail are good ways at addressing simple problems, especially if they involve something electronic, but not so suitable for complex human problems. How do you know my research methods aren't flawed? Or I'm using the wrong websites? You simply don't know, neither do I.

I am someone who has literally both taken the journey you want to take, and supported and developed other people through that exact journey, in the telecoms sector. I have made mistakes myself, and seen many more. I would not have been able to make the journey without advice, help and guidance from others, especially when I've ended up seemingly stuck in a rut.

To return to your question, getting advice, professional or otherwise, is only of benefit if you approach it openly and with willingness (both consciously and subconsciously) to act on it. Paying for advice doesn't change whether that is something you are ready to do.

This may have felt like some kind of character assassination, it really isn't intended that way, needing guidance, a new approach or a review of where you are is never an indication of failure, instead the ability to self reflect in a non judgemental way is a key driver to continued personal growth.

Seeing as I want to pay a lot of money for it. Isn't that a good indication of how willing someone is? And I'm not bothered at all by your words, if anything you're not being direct enough. One thing we're in agreement is that you got help. People don't start at the bottom, work their way up and earn the promotion, they get helped up. This has been a universal feature I've observed in the workplace. That might be too direct for anybody to be fair.

Anyway can we please talk about professional careers advice at some point.

If you're job applications are not successful you are doing it wrong. Simple as.

Darn'd straight *gulps lager*

 

[Magiccarpet]

This, just smacks of wanting validation for the idea of throwing money at careers advice so when it doesn't work (which it won't, with the attitude on display in this thread) it can be dismissed as someone else's failing.

How do you know if you've never tried? If you want to drive, you take lessons. If you want a degree, you attend lectures. If you want a more efficient wireless network in your small business and don't understand much about network infrastructure, you approach a trained and experienced consultant. Why is a complex task such as building a career direction supposed to be a DIY task left up to the individual?

My intention is to gain perspective and understanding into my options and explore the reasons for my failures, not to abandon the onus on someone else. If that was the plan you could simply blame the economy, my parents, society in general, the list is endless! But there is a lot of work and opportunity out there, it's simply getting to it. I've not been able to lie back and fall into a career path without thinking like many people do. Maybe that's a blessing in disguise, because it's forced me to think harder about my choices.

I'm starting to see why you've not been accepted into a lot of roles.

No, you're starting to see someone exhausted with the lack of help while everyone else gets the leg up. Rather than answer my query as I've politely asked, you've decided to investigate on a personal level and don't like what you see. What makes you think you would or should have in the first place? Do you think it's very nice to be in this situation? Working 60, 70, up to 90 hour weeks? Last year I moved nearly 200 miles from down south to get away from the insane property rates. I will never be able to afford a family or a house. My plan is to go to a second world country for that. Or build a time machine and get back the years I've lost. What makes you think you'd like to listen to that? If you don't like who I am as a person that's your problem. But if you have a spare moment please tell me your thoughts on professional career advice.

 

[Magiccarpet]

A careers advisor isn't going to tell you what you want to hear, for that you need a mirror and then you can continue in your own little echo chamber, full of self pity and delusion.

They probably won't be so up themselves either. If you've snoozed into jobs and muddled your way through life without thinking how are you going to relate to the problem? Why are you commenting on my personality, something you have no experience with, don't understand, and were never asked about? Very judgey in here!

I say go for it. A professional will likely get a fairly good idea on where your "issues" lie, and quite quickly, I would guess. Although I suspect they will also pump you for a load of cash at the same time!!

My history has told me that the best way to progress has been to avoid paper qualifications, be presentable, positive, speak with confidence, and take on difficult tasks when the option arises.

This is what I have done mostly, and it hasn't worked, which is the frustrating part. Volunteering for difficult and unpopular jobs and staying positive have earned me a little respect but you feel so exploited when people pile more work on you and you end up working harder for the same pay! I want to be taken seriously for once and if that means paying for it then why not.

 

[Magiccarpet]

I would budget £150+VAT per hour or thereabouts.

Exec level coaching is an entirely different ballpark.

From my research not all advisors are asking that eye-watering level of income. But put yourself in my shoes for a second: if you're on the bottom, nothing is working, you have some ideas and you really want out - what if it actually worked??

Advice designed for higher-level executives to a service rep seems inappropriate. Yet where's the help out there apart from free stuff? It's the same quality as if you're long-term unemployed. Do a course in something? Try volunteering? Um... just work harder? "Fingers crossed." You'll get there in the end! *gulp*

When you hear someone say there's no guarantees in life, they're saying they can't or won't deal with it. The point is to have a plan. Isn't that what professional advice is there for? To deal with it when no one else can be bothered or can't hack it?

No one else get the magic job fairy visit them? I just put my CV under my pillow, snooze away and fall into a dream role come morning.

If you've ever had an uncomfortable problem and are really struggling, sometimes the strongest thing to do is to ask for help. When you work with people who hate their company and sl*g it off all the time, no interest in their projects or initiatives, it clicks in a bad way. You can't develop a perspective other than every manager got there through the leg up, you get jealous and envious, everyone around you is either lucky or unlucky. By trying to not be like them you end up like them. That's how rotting it is, so I apologise. You're right and I'm wrong.

You don't need hand-outs, you don't need to know people in the right places, you need to stop self-perpetuating your own rut, and climb out of it.

I want to offer more to society, not take more. I like doing free stuff especially for people not computer-savvy. There's a big market for people with disabilities. Tech will give more choices to the aged. It would be a privilege to create something that treated a disease. It's funny, saying this in your job will get you laughed at and treated as an illness at the same time. It's like a hilarious kind of HIV!