HDMI, Arc and just getting them to play together

[peige]

I've purchased a new TV and Amp, my previous setup with an older amp with optical inputs, each hdmi into the TV, the amp picked the correct optical input steared by my Harmony remote.

I'm really pleased with each part of my purchase but getting them to function consistently without 13 remotes for the rest of the family is proving a problem.

The TV, a Samsung QE55Q90R Qled tv
The Amp is a Marantz NR1510
The media player is a Zidoo Z9s
Then I use Virgin media with there Tivo style box.
All hopefully controlled by a Harmony remote.

At the moment I have all hdmi's plugged into the Marantz box and then a connection from that to the TV on HDMI 3 which is the ARC one. I thought this was the right way to do it but its problematic, mainly if you don't want the sound out of the cini system but just want sound from the TV, kids often just watch Virgin and we don't want the amp setting in.
Worse one is watch Virgin with TV sound. The Harmony fires up tv, Virgin but often Virgin doesn't actually come on the screen, i'm guessing because the Amp hasn't patched through the hdmi signal (maybe this depends on what it was last doing when powered off)

Virgin should really be directly into the TV? but sometimes we want to watch Virgin with Amped sound (they do some broadcasts in 5.1), at which point I understood that ARC should be able to hand the sound back to the amp but i've struggled to get it to do this.
Same with the Zidoo, feels like it should go through the amp but then perhaps it should be TV but i'm not sure the TV supports all the sound streams the Zidoo can and to be fair we only use the Zidoo with the amp as its always for a film.

I feel I'm trying to plug it old school and it should be all into the TV...

If I can figure out which to plug to what I can get the Harmony to signal the correct buttons an inputs.

At the moment everyone thinks the setup is rubbish and complains that Virgin is broken, help!

 

[TALON1973]

As far as I'm aware arc is basically all or nothing. I have to turn it off if I want to use Bluetooth headphones.

 

[lucid]

I think you're having problems because HDMI control and the Harmony are working against each other. It's questionable too whether you really need to use the ARC feature.

Putting all the sources through the TV first really limits your choices and capabilities when it comes to handling audio formats. You've got the Marantz I presume because you wanted good quality sound. If your audio is processed by the TV first, you definitely lose DTS-MA and Dolby True HD from any high quality rips and streaming. Chances are high too that you'll lose DTS in 5.1, and maybe even DTS altogether. That leaves you with DD5.1 and Dolby ProLogic; so I think you're right to persevere with audio going to the amp first.

Your Marantz has a couple of features that will help you. The first is HDMI PassThrough in standby (see pg 135 of your user manual (paper/download). When set to ON, then in standby, the amp will pass through both picture and sound to the TV. In effect then, the amp become transparent to the HDMI signal, and this is important because it allows the TV to tell the source device how it should configure audio to suit the TV's capabilities. IOW, the amp can handle DTS-MA but the TV can't; so when the amp is in standby the HDMI handshake tells the source to send a more basic level of sound that the TV can cope with.

While you're looking at pg 135 in the Marantz manual, have a read of the two further sections called Pass Source and RC Select.

For Pass Source, the setting you probably want is Last: if you want any source to be watched and heard via the TV only. The other option fixes the Standby Passthrough source to one input only. This would guarantee that Virgin was always available with the amp in standby even if the Harmony remote wasn't used, but to change source to the media streamer you'd have to wake up the amp then change source then put the amp back to sleep again. The Harmony is going to struggle to do that.

For RC Select, I would recommend the Source Only: setting. This will allow the HDMI input to be changed even when the amp is in standby.


A quick recap on the settings:

HDMI PassThrough - ON

Pass Source - Last for any source,
(or fixed to say CBL/SAT if that's the source for Virgin, but changing source in standby is disibled)

RC Select - Source Only​

If you have the settings as above, and with HDMI control set to ON, and after power cycling everything to make sure any changes are applied and stick, then you should have fixed the inability to get Virgin to show on the TV reliably. In fact, if all the manufacturers have implemented HDMI control correctly, and it's enabled on all the devices, then when switching on Virgin the amp should standby switch and the TV come on with the correct HDMI input selected.

What about ARC?

ARC can be switched ON/OFF independently. The feature doesn't have to be used.

ARC is just to do with sending sound from the TV to the amp down the same lead that carries picture in the other direction. As an alternative to Optical, it's useful when the main TV source is Freeview, or you use the TV apps and media player a lot. Optical provides exactly the same sound quality as HDMI ARC. The only difference is that Optical doesn't have the source switching and control functionality as HDMI CEC/Anynet+.


How does the Harmony fit in?

This is where things get a little tricky. The Harmony is going to try to override some of the automation and convenience that Standby PassThrough HDMI Control provides.

Harmony programming and its Activity functions are based on having things work a certain way. For example, sources are switched off when not in use. It has to be this way to make the Wizard programming reliable and consistent, but it doesn't suit every application. Yours is a prime example.

What you need is a programmable remote that can cope with someone picking up the Virgin remote to drive the system when using just the TV for picture and sound, but then can flip profiles so that it will also run the whole system with sound via the Marantz. That's more than Harmony can cope with.

FYI, I have a set-up very similar to yours. My amp is a Yamaha. It does standby passthrough and standby switching. This is controlled by HDMI CEC. When my wife picks up the Sky remote and presses the Sky button the TV comes on and the amp switches to the Sky input but stays in standby. She can then watch TV and control the volume all by using the Sky remote. The only bit where HDMI CEC falls down is with power off. The TV doesn't go in to standby. That's because the implementation of HDMI CEC hasn't been written properly in one of the devices. She presses the TV ON/OFF button on the Sky remote. Hardly the end of the world, but it goes to show that HDMI CEC isn't a complete solution.

My main streamer is a Firestick. I can switch on the system and play that via the TV too simply by picking up and pressing a couple of buttons on the FS remote. Standby for this does work.

My main remotes around the house are Pronto and Nevo touch screens. They are more advanced than Harmony and provide a blank canvas so that the programming isn't restricted by what a Wizard can or can't do. Harmony isn't geared up for this, and it's why I won't supply Harmony for my installs; it's not a custom-install product.

To integrate Harmony you're going to have to forego HDMI control; you can't have two sets of Generals giving orders at the same time.

 

[peige]

Firstly, thanks for your comprehensive answer

I did buy the Marantz for good sound which it does deliver but also my old amp couldn't handle a number of newer audio formats The new amp is mostly for use with the Zidoo player as thats when I'm out with all the newer sound formats and watching a film.

When I do want to kick in the Marantz with Virgin its when they broadcast something that's worth bringing it in for, as I understand it you only get 5.1 with the HD channels (but not ITV) so its normally when a new Doctor Who comes on or His Dark Materials atm, am I right in thinking that virgin never use anything over bog standard 5.1 anyway so possibly ARC is capable of doing the audio back to the amp?
Then you have Prime/apple tv on the tv itself, again ARC I think(?) can do the job in that context.

Almost seems like Virgin could be plugged into the TV but I'm going to try the settings on the Marantz that you've highlighted, it may be that i've muggled them up whilst punting around settings trying to fix this. I think sticking it so it always defaults to Virgin's hdmi socket would be best but now i'm aware of the area to look in I can play with how it works. As I said, the only other source is the Zidoo and when I use that its always sound out through the amp so I can set the Harmony to power on and select the correct inputs no problem.

I just want it to work simply for Virgin mainly, because it doesn't work right now I get home and find every remote has been used and the whole system is out of sync highlighting what you say about the Harmony, ie Virgin is on but the tv is off so they try and use the Harmony but it turns virgin off and the tv on again, or it works but the harmony doesn't control the Virgin box and arggg

Last night I got back to girls powering off the Virgin Broadband router because the TV wasn't working *facepalm*

 

[lucid]

Yes, in your case it may be simpler to go with a direct connection VM -> TV, then TV via ARC to the Marantz. It's unlikely you'll be missing much.

Of the live broadcast channels on VM, you won't find anything better than DD5.1 except perhaps BT Sport in DD+ ATMOS if you have that as a subscription. The streaming channels/apps are a different matter.

In theory, Apple TV supports up to DTS-MA sound, but it relies on the hardware. What you get from a TV with the app won't be the same as with an Apple TV box. As an app within your Samsung TV, and with ARC/Optical as the best connection, then you'll max out at DD/DD+.

TTBOMK, Amazon Prime and Netflix both max out at DD+ ATMOS.


I have some empathy with the girls and their struggle. If all they want to do is "watch some bliddy TV" and the tech is getting in the way then you can sort of see their point.

At the same time though, on occasions they may well want to watch something that's streaming but not available via the VM box when you're not around. I have customers who are the same. It's usually mum driving the system for the young kids, or maybe a girl's night in. That's why I supply and program the touchscreen remotes. Two or three key presses can have the whole system fired up reliably and consistently, and I write the remote screens so it's a guided operation. Life gets a lot simpler and there's none of those phone calls when you're driving or just about to get on a flight "How do I watch..........?" lol

 

[peige]

A quick recap on the settings:

HDMI PassThrough - ON

Pass Source - CBL/SAT if that's the source for Virgin

RC Select - Source Only

OK i've gone with this, it looks like it works well. See how it works over the next few days...

I know what your saying about others being frustraighted with the seemingly complex setup, if anything it should be simpler than it used to be and maybe now it will behave better!