House - Historic Movement

Mason-

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Hi All,

In the process of buying an old house (approx age of construction 1875). I was intending to get a full structural survey for my own peace of mind as it's old.

Anyway, I got the Mortgage providers Valuation Report through today (and the lender is happy with it) and a couple of things concerned me:

Is there evidence of the property being affected by structural movement caused by subsidence, settlement, landslip or heave? Yes.

If Yes:- Is this movement considered to be long-standing in nature and the risk of further movement taking place acceptable? Yes.

Is there any evidence of underpinning? No.

Are there any other factors that create a significant risk of future structural movement? No.

Are walls showing signs of damage due to floors suffering from sulphate/chemical attack or settlement? No.

Any presence of Japaneses Knotweed within the curtilage and/or within potential influencing distance of the property? No.

There is a section further on which says "Specialist Reports Required for Mortgage" among them is "Structural Engineers", it's not selected. None of the reports are selected.

So on to my question, considering the mortgage company is happy with that information to go ahead and they don't believe any further reports are necessary, am I going to unnecessary expense to conduct my own structural survey? Most of the house is rendered, it's of the old fashioned flint and brick construction (http://www.brianfranklin.co.uk/files/3014/3090/7701/image02.jpg?v=1) like that image. The backside wall of the house isn't rendered over so you can see the masonry. Some of it had been repointed and it seemed quite recent, the wall also seemed bowed. And you can see that there is the end of a steel rod at one end of the house coming out the other side (I think this is fairly common with old houses). Done a bit of googling apparently this is 'wall-tying'.

And further, would you have to declare that to insurance companies? Considering it says that it's historic and long standing and the risk of further movement is acceptable.

I've messaged my broker, and the EA asking for the seller to provide as much information as they know and how they arrange their insurance.

I think getting a full structural survey is the sensible thing to do for my own peace of mind. Any advice? Cheers.
 
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andicole0

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For peace of mind I would get a more detailed report and I would not hide anything from your insurance company as they have in the past used lack of information to get out of paying up. It might also be worth talking to a separate insurance company to see what they would consider sensible.
Andi.
 

Skillmister

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Not uncommon in houses of all ages not just old ones. Direct quote from the survey report for my 1960s council house:-

Structural movement
Evidence of old cracking was noted to the walls to the front and rear walls. The movement that has caused this is not considered to be serious and is characteristic of normal lateral, thermal and differential movement that commonly affects houses of this type. Further significant movement is unlikely to occur. You might wish to have the cracks carefully repaired as a cosmetic improvement although this is not essential. Movement of this type can be seasonal and it is possible that the cracks may reappear in time.
Click to expand...

I have no idea what your area is like for coal mining etc in the past but I'd see what the search results say on that front and maybe consider a more detailed coal search for the sake of £50. I probably wouldn't worry if it revealed nothing in the area, but I recently dealt with a house where the coal search revealed the area had historic mines in the area below it and a couple of houses on the street had made coal mining related subsidence claims in the past. Now that probably would make me do a runner...

At the end of the day a survey is such a small cost in the scheme of things you may as well if just for peace of mind
 

Mason-

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Skillmister said:
Not uncommon in houses of all ages not just old ones. Direct quote from the survey report for my 1960s council house:-



I have no idea what your area is like for coal mining etc in the past but I'd see what the search results say on that front and maybe consider a more detailed coal search for the sake of £50. I probably wouldn't worry if it revealed nothing in the area, but I recently dealt with a house where the coal search revealed the area had historic mines in the area below it and a couple of houses on the street had made coal mining related subsidence claims in the past. Now that probably would make me do a runner...

At the end of the day a survey is such a small cost in the scheme of things you may as well if just for peace of mind
Click to expand...

Just been on the coal authority website, says it isn't on the coalfields so that shouldn't be an issue.

And yes, I agree the cost is relatively low, so I think I'll go with that.
 

fastwunz

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BigBoy said:
Get a structural engineer to inspect the property as the survey fella will just cover his arse and nothing more!
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Actually the surveyor in question will likely be MRICS or FRICS and will therefore be very well positioned to decide as to whether movement needs further investigation. It takes years and a serious amount of training to reach the above level of qualification. Their qualification will be on the report.

The crucial part of lender guidance to surveyors involving the assessment of structural movement regards whether the movement is ‘longstanding or progressive’.

It is very very common that properties of this age will have settled and, the existence of steel tie bars is also exceptionally common and not normally something you need concern yourself about.

The surveyor will have looked at the cracks themselves, the width, the origin and at which points the crack is widest. This will then inform him/her as to whether the movement is due to settlement or subsidence and as to whether it is longstanding or progressive.

The surveyor will also have taken into account proximity of trees, rubble or dust within the cracks themselves, replaced roof coverings, removed chimney stacks, roof structure and suitability for loading, past extension works, construction type, soil type (shrinkable clay being the most prone to settlement and heave - typically in London) drainage.... the list goes on.

The fact is, when making a decision as to whether a crack is longstanding or progressive, the surveyor must be sure of their assertions due to the risk of the punter coming back in the future and having a moan.

However, should you want to seek further assurance then a structural engineer is the next stop - let us know how you get on and best of luck!
 

Mason-

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fastwunz said:
Actually the surveyor in question will likely be MRICS or FRICS and will therefore be very well positioned to decide as to whether movement needs further investigation. It takes years and a serious amount of training to reach the above level of qualification. Their qualification will be on the report.

The crucial part of lender guidance to surveyors involving the assessment of structural movement regards whether the movement is ‘longstanding or progressive’.

It is very very common that properties of this age will have settled and, the existence of steel tie bars is also exceptionally common and not normally something you need concern yourself about.

The surveyor will have looked at the cracks themselves, the width, the origin and at which points the crack is widest. This will then inform him/her as to whether the movement is due to settlement or subsidence and as to whether it is longstanding or progressive.

The surveyor will also have taken into account proximity of trees, rubble or dust within the cracks themselves, replaced roof coverings, removed chimney stacks, roof structure and suitability for loading, past extension works, construction type, soil type (shrinkable clay being the most prone to settlement and heave - typically in London) drainage.... the list goes on.

The fact is, when making a decision as to whether a crack is longstanding or progressive, the surveyor must be sure of their assertions due to the risk of the punter coming back in the future and having a moan.

However, should you want to seek further assurance then a structural engineer is the next stop - let us know how you get on and best of luck!
Click to expand...
He is MRICS, do you I’m overreacting then? And should not bother having a structural?
 

mattyg

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I think EVERY house in our town over 50 Years has some movement... They are mostly built on sand.

data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sG-El7BfVo0QrIew571CW0Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.6...4!1sG-El7BfVo0QrIew571CW0Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


It looks bad enough in the pic.. In real life its almost Pisa'esque
 
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sja360

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Surely you wouldn't be happy with the constant angle on the floors? Ie a ball rolls from one side of the room to the other etc
And it must effect drainage slughsli on showers and baths too?
 

Lostkat

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It's always worth having a survey on a property of this age to pick up other issues such as damp, but they won't go into detail and will most likely recommend having a structural engineer in to inspect it further.

I went through all of this with my first house, an 1880s end terrace with 2 cracks in the front render. It turned into a nightmare as nobody would insure us, so the lender wouldn't release the funds. As soon as you click the tick box for showing evidence of movement, insurance companies run a mile. It took me weeks to get someone to insure it and we paid a premium for it. It never caused me any problem and before I painted the render, I filled the cracks with flexible filler. It wasn't even noted on the next buyer's survey.

On a separate note, have you also checked for damp? It won't come up on a lender's evaluation. Move cupboards and see if there's mould behind them, check the internal downstairs walls and up by the gutters etc. Damp was by far the worst thing about my old place that didn't come up on the survey. I wish I'd checked that out properly before I bought the place.
 

Mason-

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Copied below from my post in the "wait to exchange" thread.

Not good :(

Surveyor just rang me after leaving the property after doing a full structural survey. He said there was evidence of historic movement, and suspects it will probably continue to move, but because of the age (1875) he said it's probably quite typical. What's more concerning is the damp, he said there's evidence of rising damp at the ground floor, issues with condensation internally, and the ventilation in the loft of the main structure and the extension (1980s) is poor because there is mould issues, with spongy rafters and insulation. Asked him for a rough ball park of putting right the damp issues he said £20k. It wouldn't benefit from cheap small interventions, rather, big work. Not what I wanted to hear... I've also heard surveyors can be incredibly conservative to cover themselves. And as I like the property so much I'll probably get a damp specialist to inspect it and give a proper diagnosis and cost of remedy.

Does anyone know what the best way is to source a damp specialist, specifically in solid stone walled houses.
 

thezappa

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I don’t know any personally (wouldn’t touch them a barge pole) but I would bet my right arm on them saying “yes it’s rising damp you need injections”.
My personal opinion would be to get a builder with good conservation credentials and ask them for their opinions on remedial work.
 

Shoza

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Chemical injection doesn’t work for older properties so don’t waste money on that. Check ground levels around the property, check the original DPC is in place (probably slate), check underfloor air vents are clear, there is ventilation in the rooms etc.
 

Skillmister

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Both myself and a colleague got damp reports from Peter Cox. Mine is a 1960s ex council house, hers is a c. 1880s gatehouse, yet the reports read almost identical referring to rising damp and requiring a DPC. I didn't bother in mine as when I stripped the place it appeared that the majority of the dampness was actually caused by water coming down the chimney and tracking along the carpet/underlay. Hers is a listed stone building in a conservation area so you can't go putting a chemical DPC in anyway!

**** advice on both accounts.
 

fastwunz

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Similarly, damp proof courses very rarely fail - it’s the blocking of air bricks, raised ground levels, bridging and condensation that are the usual culprits - all of which are caused by people not treating their homes in the correct manner.

The amount of houses in London that are filled with people and then their gardens concreted over is endemic. It’s hilarious - turn up with their concrete, poor it all over everything and then watch the fun and games begin - the houses become wetter than a mermaids brassiere (thank you black adder)
 
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