How can inifinity exist?

[kwerk]

To represent an infinite number the information must be stored somewhere right? But nobody can prove there is an infinite amount of information in the universe, so how can you "store" an infinite number?

It seems to me there must be a finite amount of information and probabilities in the universe and time, and if you expressed it as a number it would eventually be exhausted and have to start stealing information from the beginning and looping it.

It would appear to be infinite, but really it's not. You could say that process in itself is infinite but it's not, because if you counted the iterations there would be no way to store the number! You are simply taking information off the beginning and adding it to the end. Maybe that's all "time" is?

 

[kwerk]

What I'm saying is it can't ever be applied to anything in reality, and if it was applied it's actually just a very long loop like a circle. How can you tell you are still increasing with out checking back to near the beginning? If it did keep increasing that would mean new information could be created out of nowhere.

 

[kwerk]

No.
It must not.
The rest of your text is unnecessary, as the basic assumption appears incorrect.

In human terms it has to be stored by the state of the particles that make up your brain neurons or electrons in a computer, or graphite on a piece of paper. So if you just draw a sideways figure eight you aren't representing a number but just an idea. It exists as much as the idea that the universe is sitting inside the stomach of a giant cow.

 

[kwerk]

There is no evidence true randomness exists either.

When you are talking about infinity you are really talking about applying a function to something. Like a simple +1 to any number.

If the universe was infinite it would mean there is a function being applied, like when you get to the smallest particle repeat the function on the universe and create a new universe inside that particle. Eventually you would see a repeat of itself, like a fractal. It's really a loop, and finite in information. You could apply the function to any universe and keep going without any new information.

 

[kwerk]

What's at the edge of universe, beyond the edge of all space?

What's beyond the edge of a DF:BHD map?

 

[kwerk]

Dont need to physically write it down for it to exist,


10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

The number above is larger than the amount of atoms in the observable universe

You're just applying a function to shorten it, in this case base 10. There is no new information being introduced. All you're saying is "take this number and repeat it this way". It's not a number it's instruction on how to create a number from a much smaller amount of information.

 

[kwerk]

A large number represents no more information than a small number. They're just points on a line (the real number line), in much the same way that two different points in space don't represent different "amounts" of information.

What would you say about transcendental numbers like π and e? They have no finite expansion in any number base, so how would your represent them?

I suppose it comes down to uniqueness. If you could observe every particle in the universe for a time frame, and assign a number to the position of each particle, each number would be unique. You couldn't just arrive at a number from a formula, you have to have the corresponding unique information (particle location). You could not compute anything from what you already have so far.

But as soon as you start applying functions to the final number, like +1, it's not going to give you any new information because that new +1 number is not assigned to anything unique, you'd have to assign it to an existing particle location. And if you applied a function to that "new" information you would get the same result as for the first number that was assigned to that location. All you are doing is manipulating existing finite information.

 

[kwerk]

when you write down the number one hundred do yo really write down 100 digits, or the three digits 1,0 and 0? When you write down 1 billion, do you draw 1 billion symbols or simply write the text "1 billion".
Infinity has a symbol, a sideways 8.

Problem solved.

You are writing down "take 1 and add 1 for 9 iterations, then multiple that by 10". The only information in there is "1", the rest is instructions on what to do with it. You can add "infinite" zeros on the end but really it is just a function saying "multiple the number by the sum of ten 1s and loop".

 

[kwerk]

It's not infinity it's a loop! Stop thinking about numbers and think of a fractal. Now imagine that instead of making copies of itself it makes unique new structures from new shapes. That would be real infinity. No matter where you move or zoom to, you find something new which could not have been generated by a using a function on an existing part. Although I suspect there would still be a function at work, but using randomness. But nobody can prove randomness exists, so how can infinity exist?

 

[kwerk]

Your arguments don't make any sense.

Also, the kind of fractal you talk about is called a quasi-self-similar fractal, an example of which is the Mandelbrot set. It has nothing to do with randomness.

Really, you're just making things up. You seem to think you're outwitting whole generations of mathematicians with your arguments

It's still self similar. It's like saying a computer can generate a random number, but really it can't. It can only generate a fake random number from some algorithm.

 

[kwerk]

There's nothing wrong with the "layman" trying to make sense of complicated maths/science, in fact it's a good thing that the general public have a decent qualitative knowledge of difficult concepts. But when the armchair mathematicians come out of the woodwork and claim accepted theory to be incorrect because they can't understand it, well that's a bit crazy.

kwerk: I hope you don't mind me asking but to what level have you studied maths?

Just a couple of uni classes which were of no interest to me at the time. It's not so much maths I'm talking about but infinity in general, like when people say a black hole has infinite mavity for example, or there are infinite universes.

Watching the Horizon video that someone posted there seems to be a few scientists who were saying what I was thinking about.

I understand the math CONCEPT and I accept that it's a useful way to represent uncomprehendingly big numbers, but what I'm saying is there's no evidence that it EXISTS in real terms and I can't come up with a way it could possibly exist without simply looping something finite.

And the monkey typewriter thing bugs me too. Because for that to work the monkey would have to bash keys completely randomly, but there is no such thing as true randomness so eventually it would settle in to a pattern no? The closet thing science has found to randomness is things like the decay of radioactive material but nobody can really say if that is truly random or not.