How much to charge?

[An Exception]

I don't know much about commercial photography or it's value so I was wondering if anyone here had some advice on pricing.
I just received a call from a PR guy for Dartmouth, and he says he wants to use 3 or 4 images from an engagement shoot I did for a national ad campaign to attract people to Dartmouth, apparently he wants to be able to use the images for 5 years. The problem is I have no idea what to charge them?

Also as this is a marketing campaign, I assume I would also need permission from the couple in the pictures (which I would ask for anyway)?

Below is what he emailed to me, I've already told him I don't have any availability to shoot some specific images, so it would just be for the few pictures from the engagement shoot.

Dear xxxx,

Great to talk to you just now - as I said we are putting together a
destination marketing campaign for Dartmouth and were very impressed
with your images of Charley and Si in out beautiful town. They capture
the mood and beauty of the town so well we were wondering if we could
use individual images for the campaign, which will be used mainly online
and on railway posters nationwide.

In addition: do you do commercial photography to a brief? We are also
looking for specific images to fit a funny line of text. Art direction
would come from our marketing agency but we need a talented photographer
to fulfil the brief. We are looking for 7-8 photos, each to a different
brief. If you have availability, and its the sort of work you would
like, how long would you estimate this to take and how much would you
charge?

 

[Russinating]

When it comes to this sort of thing (licensing and not actually based on work time) then it really is how long is a piece of string.

We do a fair bit of this for video and it's always different. Basically you want a flat rate cost for admin (say £100) for you to export the photos, get them to them, etc. The rest is difficult, and also depends on your day rate; for example if your day rate is £500 and you then ask £1,000 for these, then they may as well just commission you to retake them all again with models.

Don't get greedy and just charge a reasonable amount. But at the same start slightly higher as they'll probably push you down anyway.

Oh and I can give you our license agreement if that would help, just trust me.

 

[Nexus]

Only thing I thought to mention is the situation with the couple.

As the Photographer, you own the licence to the images, so are largely free to sell them how you want. The only issue I see though is that you have a couple here who presumably entered into a paid contract with you to take those shots. So I guess it comes down to how you worded it and whether you signed away your copyright, which I would think you probably didn't do.

I would think you have a few scenarios....

- Don't say anything to the couple and sell your photos.

- Inform the couple and seek their approval.... in which case:
(a) They may be all fine with it.
(b) They may be against it.
(c) They may want a cut of the money.

If they are aware or find out retrospectively, their is always the chance they might try legal proceedings against you.... though given it's an ad campaign for a town I wouldn't think you could defame someone or misrepresent them. So with that in mind, it might be worth making sure you have the right insurance, also if you are registered as a Limited Company, you have more protection that anyone coming after you will be against your business, rather than you individually.

I'm sure all that won't happen and perhaps somebody can offer better advice, but I'm sure it will be all fine, well done.

 

[D.P.]

Pretty sure a model release is required because the photos of the couple are being used to promote a product/service (i.e. Dartmouth) . You wouldn't need a model release if you were selling the photo as fine art, or as publication in a news event (hence paparazzi) but you do need a model release for things like advertizing or if the people/building is printed on a t-shirt/the product itself/product boxing/promotion media.


Wedding photographers who also want to sell their work as stock will seek model releases from the wedding couple before the event.

 

[Sh4rkie]

A release / consent would be required unless you have that release already due to it being written into your contracts.

Even if it wasn't advertising you could still have issues for example, even posting the images on here because of the clients right to privacy.

 

[An Exception]

A release / consent would be required unless you have that release already due to it being written into your contracts.

Even if it wasn't advertising you could still have issues for example, even posting the images on here because of the clients right to privacy.

I wouldn't think that would be an issue in this case as the client submitted the pictures to a national wedding blog.

 

[An Exception]

Thanks for everyones help.
I think I'll send a quote first before bothering the couple. If the PR guy is happy with the quote or we negotiate a price we are both happy with, I'll then ask the couple for their consent (I don't think they would object) before going ahead.

 

[Sh4rkie]

I wouldn't think that would be an issue in this case as the client submitted the pictures to a national wedding blog.

Should be good then but always best to have your contract terms clear and concise as it avoids all the questions later.

Some people forget that commissioned work differs from taking photos in a public place and the paying client has a lot more rights on what can be done with their image even though a photographer holds the copyright.

Thanks for everyones help.
I think I'll send a quote first before bothering the couple. If the PR guy is happy with the quote or we negotiate a price we are both happy with, I'll then ask the couple for their consent (I don't think they would object) before going ahead.

I'd be tempted to casually sound out the couple first. Imagine if you did agree a fee with the PR guy then went to the couple and they said no or a conditional yes but they want a cut. You'd have to go back to the PR guy and say it's not going to happen or you might have to rethink your price if you want the same margin.

 

[D.P.]

A release / consent would be required unless you have that release already due to it being written into your contracts.

Even if it wasn't advertising you could still have issues for example, even posting the images on here because of the clients right to privacy.

I have never heard of this right to privacy? You can take photos of people in public and put then on the internet, sell photos of them, print them in national newspapers. AFAIK, there is no right to privacy when in a public place.

What you can't do is commercially exploit their photos for products/services/promotions/advertising.

 

[Sh4rkie]

I have never heard of this right to privacy? You can take photos of people in public and put then on the internet, sell photos of them, print them in national newspapers. AFAIK, there is no right to privacy when in a public place.

Absolutely correct, photos taken from a public place are basically a free for all .

Some people forget that commissioned work differs from taking photos in a public place and the paying client has a lot more rights on what can be done with their image even though a photographer holds the copyright.

As i stated above commissioned work is different though and An Exception photos fall into that category. It comes under S85 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/48/section/85

85 - Right to privacy of certain photographs and films.
(1)A person who for private and domestic purposes commissions the taking of a photograph or the making of a film has, where copyright subsists in the resulting work, the right not to have—

(a) copies of the work issued to the public,
(b) the work exhibited or shown in public, or
(c) the work [F1communicated to the public];

So unless you have suitable terms in your contract with the client they can take issue with you displaying images they've commissioned you to create e.g. posting them to an online to a forum, Facebook, flickr.

 

[Rojin]

The couple don't own the copyright though, An Exception does. You don't need model release forms in the UK (unless that has changed in the last year).

Edit: I'm assuming the contract included the usual copyright maintained, work will be used for promotion, advertising etc. clauses. It's standard else you can't even use it on your website.

 

[D.P.]

Absolutely correct, photos taken from a public place are basically a free for all .


As i stated above commissioned work is different though and An Exception photos fall into that category. It comes under S85 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/48/section/85

85 - Right to privacy of certain photographs and films.
(1)A person who for private and domestic purposes commissions the taking of a photograph or the making of a film has, where copyright subsists in the resulting work, the right not to have—

(a) copies of the work issued to the public,
(b) the work exhibited or shown in public, or
(c) the work [F1communicated to the public];

So unless you have suitable terms in your contract with the client they can take issue with you displaying images they've commissioned you to create e.g. posting them to an online to a forum, Facebook, flickr.

I wasn't thinking when i made that post. Yes I agree, I've always understood paid work to have a whole different set of legal work.

When an entity (person or company) pays for a photographer to take photos of property or people that entity has rights over how that photo is used.

The photographer will maintain copyright unless explicitly transferred but holding copyright doesn't give you a carte blanche to do something with commissioned work. E.g., a photogpraher that takes photos of an unreleased new product for a marketing campaign has no rights to publish the photos, even if they maintained copyright.

 

[Sh4rkie]

The couple don't own the copyright though, An Exception does. You don't need model release forms in the UK (unless that has changed in the last year).

Edit: I'm assuming the contract included the usual copyright maintained, work will be used for promotion, advertising etc. clauses. It's standard else you can't even use it on your website.

Copyright is irrelevant in these circumstances without their consent either after the fact or due to the existing contract in place the client has control of their image.

As i've said in each post it's all about the wording in a contract if one is in place. Generally speaking 'standard' contracts if there is such a thing usual define the work may be used for promotion and advertising of the photographer or his / her business itself, not advertising third party products, services etc. Some will have that included but some don't as it can end up wordy and joe public might baulk at signing it. This is why separate contracts can often be used, one for someone who commissions work from a tog and one that is universally termed 'model release' where it gives the tog more control of the resulting images.

 

[Rojin]

The consent will be in the contract, or at least should be. As I said it's standard for a wedding shooter.

 

[Sh4rkie]

The consent will be in the contract, or at least should be. As I said it's standard for a wedding shooter.

I'm not disagreeing, what's the issue?

 

[Rojin]

I'm not disagreeing, what's the issue?

I don't know, I had already said this in the post you quoted. I assumed you had ignored it?

Edit: I dunno how we ended up in circles, I was agreeing with you in the first place. I blame An Exception for not telling us if he has it covered in his contract or not Although it sounds like the couple wouldn't have an issue anyway and would give consent. I'd be amazed if it's not in his contract though, school boy error if so!

 

[Sh4rkie]

I don't know, I had already said this in the post you quoted. I assumed you had ignored it?

Edit: I dunno how we ended up in circles, I was agreeing with you in the first place. I blame An Exception for not telling us if he has it covered in his contract or not Although it sounds like the couple wouldn't have an issue anyway and would give consent. I'd be amazed if it's not in his contract though, school boy error if so!

Yeah it's all An Exception's fault hehe

 

[An Exception]

^^^
In my contract copyright remains mine but they are licensed to share with friends/family as much as they want etc.
I actually physically tell the clients after a shoot that I will be uploading a set of the images to my blog and ask if that is ok. The blog post is initially password protected until they give the images the ok.
No model release clause though...