How to remove tiled boxing to get to the cistern (dodgy bathroom install)?

[Adam]

To cut a long story short, our new downstairs bathroom didn't quite go to plan and resulted in me telling the bathroom fitter to stop working on it and I'll find someone else to finish the job. The tiling is poor and the pipework isn't looking too clever. I'm now in the process of figuring out how I can salvage it without spending thousands starting again.

The last straw was him about to seal the toilet down when it wasn't fixed to the floor. It was loose and I didn't see how a bit of sealant would hold it in position so that's when I lost trust in him and told him to leave. He said the pipes ran under the floor so there was no way he could fix it. I'm not sure if that's true or not but I'll get my pipe detector out to check.

I asked very early on how we get to the cistern if there was ever a problem. He said if I got a suction pad the top of the boxing will come loose allowing me to get at it. I now need to turn off the water and remove the waste so I can look at how the toilet can be fixed. I have a suction pad but I don't want to attempt to lift the tiles if he has lied to me (which I suspect he has).

Images:





Does anyone have any thoughts as to whether it's worth trying to remove the tiles? I was thinking scoring the grouting away first. If the tiles break it's not the end of the world as they are readily available. I also need to get some more grout to finish the job so again happy to replace some more of it.

 

[ci_newman]

That's grouted in, no way a suction pad is going to remove that without removing the grout first..

Also, how the hell do you use that sink without sitting on the toilet??

 

[Adam]

That's grouted in, no way a suction pad is going to remove that without removing the grout first..

Also, how the hell do you use that sink without sitting on the toilet??

I have a bosch multitool with a grout removing tool. I was planning to remove the grout then try to lift it. I presume it's stuck to the boxing although no idea what material that is made of so I'm also concerned I'll damage that too. Without getting to the pipework I'm not sure how the toilet can be fixed in to position. The cistern has water in and the flush is connected via the black flush plate.

It's only a very small closet bathroom for downstairs, so space was always at a premium. The other issue is that the toilet is too far over to the right side of the picture so your knees hit the radiator. The whole thing is a bit of a mess really.

 

[KompuKare]

That's grouted in, no way a suction pad is going to remove that without removing the grout first..

Also, how the hell do you use that sink without sitting on the toilet??

"Did you wash your hands after using the toilet?"
"No, during!"

I too cannot see how it can lift out - whether suction cups or the more usual magnets - at least without taking out the grout.

I have one of those grout removing blades too, just never had to use it!

My downstairs is tight, but not that tight. When doing it, I had considered getting one with a separate cistern like you see commercially as due to the way the stair turn, there is actually a lot of ceiling height above the toilet.
I think I would have been able to move the toilet itself back about 150mm then but ended up giving that idea a miss -those commercial units are hard to source and don't have much choice.

 

[200sols]

That is awful. Honestly its a rip out and replace it all job IMO. A toilet/ sink combo would have been a better solution for that space.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

A toilet/ sink combo

Just dip your hands into the pan?

 

[200sols]

Just dip your hands into the pan?

Lol. These small spaces you have to be creative, loking again it may even have been possible to put a sink on the shelf above the toilet if it was designed in such a way. Maybe not ideal but better than a sink in your face and knees mashed up against the wall. I would only ever use a concealed cistern where all the parts are accessible through the front push plate like Grohe or Geberit.

 

[radderfire]

Surely there must have been some thought given to maintenance access beforehand?? It's hard to see from the pics, but there doesn't look like there's any grout along the bottom of the chrome strip. So, is there any movement in the chrome strip and associated shelf?? Would it be designed for that top shelf to lift up??

 

[b0rn2sk8]

I can’t help with the tiles but I’ll be honest and say that I don’t think siliconing the toilet to the floor is a particularly poor attachment method.

We have a tiled floor with electric underfloor heating in our cloak room (runs though most of the ground floor) and I swapped the toilet recently. The old one was stuck down with silicone to the floor and it didn’t budge. I’ve done the same with the new one and that hasn’t budged either and I’m not a small bloke.

I couldn’t screw it down because I risk taking out the underfloor heating to the entire hallway.

Edit: pipes underneath is a pretty good reason to be not screwing it down. Just take care because they may be plastic and a pipe detector will only find metal.

 

[gc123]

I can’t help with the tiles but I’ll be honest and say that I don’t think siliconing the toilet to the floor is a particularly poor attachment method.

must admit when moving my downstairs one ,while replacing the macerator some time back the screws had rusted and i had to chop them off i siloconned the pan back and its still solid , in fact probably firmer than screws if you allow it to set long enough

 

[200sols]

Use an adhesive like CT1 rather than silicone though.

 

[PaDE]

Plus one on the combination pan and sink if you are going to redo.

Our downstairs loo has been siliconed to porcelain tiles. Even the mother in law with her backside wouldn’t budge it.

 

[Semple]

Does anyone have any thoughts as to whether it's worth trying to remove the tiles? I was thinking scoring the grouting away first. If the tiles break it's not the end of the world as they are readily available. I also need to get some more grout to finish the job so again happy to replace some more of it.

Having done this recently to try and find a leak, scoring away at the grout is the easy part. If he's done a decent job, there should be some sort of plasterboard behind the tiles for them to be stuck to. That's a bit more of a nightmare to get through as you won't have the tile loose to get access. I drilled some very small holes between the tiles (after grout had been removed) and then used a hacksaw blade to cut the tile out.

Either way, that's awful planning from the fitter. I would have put something like a small piece of worktop over the top of the cistern rather than tiling it. Can always install some magnetic clips to firmly hold it in place until you need access. Even if you're not considering redoing the entire bathroom again, i would definitely sort that bit out now as things like fill valves or flush valves don't tend to last very long.

 

[Adam]

I've kept quiet on this so apologies for the lack of updates.

I withheld some cash when I told him not to bother coming back but it's become clear that isn't enough to complete the job properly so I am looking at going down the legal route to reclaim some of the money I paid him. I sent a letter last week with 19 outstanding issues/things I'm not happy with. He has an answer for each of them but it's either a lie or his version of events which don't make a lot of sense. I've given him until the end of the week otherwise I'll be going via moneyclaim (small claims court) to try and reclaim as much as I can.

It's got very ugly unfortunately and a month or so on and I'm still without a useable bathroom downstairs. As you can imagine I am very fed up and spent far too much time on this. The tilers I have got in have either said it all needs to come out and start again and the plumbers have said the boxing at least. I need to figure out what to do next!

 

[Adam]

Update: The threat of the small claims court allowed us to reach a settlement. I was well prepared to go to court and am confident I would have won given the evidence I have and the poor quality work but reclaiming the money can be tricky so I opted for a settlement around 50% of what I would have claimed for at court.

I had the boxing ripped out:









As you can see, the isolation valves are both at the bottom of the boxing so I'd never have been able to get to them if I took the top off like he suggested. The toilet was actually leaking from the cistern and waste, the waste used a flexi pipe that was poorly installed (I think it was the same one from the old bathroom) whereas the cistern sat at an angle in a fixed position. I'm so glad I put an end to this job and am having it done properly.

The plan now is to have a Grohe cistern frame installed with a wall hung toilet. I should have done my research initially and looked in to this rather than leaving it to my wife. Quite honestly I couldn't be bothered at the time with so much other stuff going on and left it to her. The result is weeks of stress and wasted time, never again.

Something else that gave me the hump was how he left the old isolation valves sticking out of the tiles, god knows how many years they have been there. This gives me the chance to have them replaced and done properly. He managed to cover them in adhesive then made a mess of the waste pipe which he tried to fix by using spray paint. Crazy. You'll also spot the packers holding the basin flat against the wall. He told me it had a manufacturing fault and part of the basin sat proud hence the big gaps. The basin actually wobbles. I'm hoping a proper fixing kit will solve this.



The rest of the bathroom has some less serious issues but my focus is on the toilet and the pipework for the time being.

 

[dlockers]

Wowza. Spray paint on the pipework is a new one to me.

 

[Adam]

Wowza. Spray paint on the pipework is a new one to me.

Yep that and the toilet not being secured and clearly leaking was the final straw and led to me firing him. No pride whatsoever.

 

[skyripper]

We had three basins with non-flat backs. Seems quality control is not a priority in the factories. In the end we had a sink and pedestal put in. In the small space you have, a basin on a shelf above the loo would give you the most room. Just make sure sitters don't crack their head on it...

 

[Mysterae_]

Hope you get it sorted to your satisfaction OP.

It's threads like this that have made me lose all trust in plumbers. This and all the bodge jobs I walked in to after moving house.

 

[jaybee]

Can you explain how you are looking at getting it done so that you do have access to everything? I have a very nicely done en suite which is tiled all over. I also always wondered about access if ever there was an issue. I think it would literally also have to be a rip the tiles out job.