Hyperthreading vs Non Hyperthreading in games

[joedeath332]

So my PC is mostly just used for gaming and i was going to upgrade the CPU to a 17-9700kF but i am wondering if with more and more games being designed for multicore useage , would i be better spending the extra and getting the i9-9900KF with Hyperthreading so that its more future proof as it has 16 cores instead of 8 cores but something i'm not sure of is if a game is designed to use multiple cores , does it prefer to use the hyperthreading cores or actual physical cores , or can the games usually not tell the difference between the two and just use what ever core is available.
i plan to Overclock the CPU as much as possible for max single core frequency , i take it the i7-9700KF would do this better due to no hyperthreading.

 

[joedeath332]

A typical game these days likes 1-3 real cores to run the heavy weight stuff on and then uses a bunch of worker threads, etc. which don't really care what they are running on but if you end up with too many of them on the same core you will likely see some stutter, etc. (there are some exceptions where some games don't like SMT at all or vice versa games that can make very good use of SMT).

It will also depend a bit on whether you are happily playing at 60Hz especially at higher resolutions or aiming for 120+Hz/FPS where the CPU can have more of an impact.

I would say that a base line would be 8 cores/threads where at least 2-3 are real cores even if the rest is made up from SMT/HT but that doesn't leave a lot of future proofing.

Thanks @Rroff , i mainly game using VR , the HP Reverb which has 2 screens @ 2160 x 2160 so 4320 x 2160 and the main game that i play is iRacing which runs on an old engine which just uses one core . but when upgrading my CPU i would like to make sure that it is future proof for about 3 years so hense the multicore / hyperthreading question.
My GPU is a 1080ti and my monitor is 1080p but its seldom used , as most games i play in VR as they are racing sims.

 

[joedeath332]

I think Iracing is one of the small number of games which don’t like Hyperthreading. I believe it will use 2 cores but it is best if they are physical rather than logical to avoid micro stutters.

Ahh interesting do you know if you can disable hyperthreading on amd? ( only ask as my current cpu is a 2700x)

What used to be 4 is now 6.

What do you mean, I'm lost

 

[joedeath332]

In your bios, it should be called "SMT" That's AMD's name for Hyperthreading.

I do a lot of sim racing also in VR. pimax 5k+ with a 9900k and a 2080ti.

The 9700k would be a way better option than a 9900k. Read this: https://www.racedepartment.com/thre...nt-and-ram-scaling-in-acc-ac1-and-r3e.172320/

The 2 biggest things that help in VR sim racing. Tuning the hell out of your ram and maxing out your CPU frequency.

Hi Robert and thanks for that info, some interesting reading in there.
Yip by this stage I have now opted for the i7 9700kf, so that I have 8 physical cores, which hopefully will get 5ghz when overclocked.
I am also going to get new ram to go with the 9700kf, and am thinking on
https://www.overclockers.co.uk/team...3600mhz-dual-channel-kit-black-my-08q-tg.html
Good or bad choice??

The main issue people forget. That even at 720p/1080p, you will become GPU bound at some point in your overclock. Increasing CPU performance will do little, clock speed or RAM speed. For example.

There are big jumps between 3200 and 4400. You can see it at 1% and 0.1% lows. Even so the average does not change much. That is a good sign of GPU bound. This is the thing about CPU's and GPU's. You can see it with AMD vs Intel cpu's, where they both perform approx. the same above 1080p. https://www.racedepartment.com/thre...nt-and-ram-scaling-in-acc-ac1-and-r3e.172320/ is gpu bound and all he is measuring is the point his 1080ti reaches maximum.

Basic build needed for gaming. 6c - 12t
https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/commen...speculated/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x

Asus Prime X570-P - £179.99 (VRM's can run the 3900x without overheating)
Patriot Memory Viper Steel Series DDR4 16GB (2 x 8GB) 3600MHz Performance Memory Kit - PVS416G360C7K - £73
AMD Ryzen 5 3600x Processor (6C/12T, 35MB Cache) £218.99

I've tried the ryzen route for iRacing & high ress VR and my 2700x @4.3 is maxing out, plus I recon I need better ram that can be ran tighter.

 

[joedeath332]

I'd get this board as it's a rockstar for RAM OC and the VRM's are fine for a 9700k https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/MPG-Z390I-GAMING-EDGE-AC It's 2 DIMM but 16gb is more then enough.

That's a b die kit so it'll have good tuning headroom.

Here's a RAM tuning guide that's pretty much perfect:
https://github.com/integralfx/MemTestHelper/blob/master/DDR4 OC Guide.md

Board looks good , i see it has 2 x full speed M2 sockets , maybe i would like some more usb slots on the rear.
When you say the VRM's are fine for 9700k , are they ok for clocking to 5ghz ( providing ram and cpu are up to the job )

 

[joedeath332]

As a flight sim and race sim enthusiast I think that intel are still the best option for this genre as all the games prefer single thread performance. All other game types I would go amd now

Thanks , about 80% of my pc time is spent playing sims,

 

[joedeath332]

Thanks everyone else for their feedback ,

 

[joedeath332]

Yeah no problem on getting a 9700k to
5GH+

What’s your budget?

The Aorus master from gigabyte has a lot of USB ports without many incompatibility issues. However you’d want 4 slots filled for ram over clocking past 3600mhz

Yar i was also looking at that as i heard that was the good board. plus it also has to full speed m2 slots , i seen its out of stock at OC , so i might have to buy it elsewhere.

BTW i take it that most Z390 chipset boards come with a bios version that the i7 9700kf will work straight out of the box , and not leave me in a position of needing to get the bios updated before the cpu will work.

 

[joedeath332]

@Robert896r1 i think ill push out the boat and stretch to the Gigabyte Aorus Master ,

Yeah no problem on getting a 9700k to
5GH+

What’s your budget?

The Aorus master from gigabyte has a lot of USB ports without many incompatibility issues. However you’d want 4 slots filled for ram over clocking past 3600mhz

Sod it i think ill push out the boat and stretch to buying the Gigabyte Aorus Master , but what do u mean by past 3600mhz ??
the memory i will be buying is : https://www.overclockers.co.uk/team...3600mhz-dual-channel-kit-black-my-08q-tg.html
if i buy just 2 sticks and don't take it past 3600mhz with as tight a timings as possible , would that not be ok for 5ghz from the cpu

 

[joedeath332]

@Robert896r1 yip black Friday was going to be my goal , but i think i might buy today as the i7-9700kF is reduced to £299 on Overclockers as this week only , and Also places selling the Gigabyte Aorus Master seems to be limited due to stock availability.
If i wait for the Black friday deals , i'd probably end up saving a few £££ ,but getting something inferior.
Decisions , Decisions , Decisions !!!!

EDIT : suppose if i did wait and the 9700K was on offer as apposed to the 9700KF , then it would not be the end of the world as i'm sure that would work (overclock) just as well.

 

[joedeath332]

For what youll be doing, both are the same thing. Buy the one that's cheaper.

Thanks for offering to help me out with the tuning , i think i will hold of buying the i7 9700KF today while it is discounted and just hold out till the Black Friday and see what sales happen

 

[joedeath332]

@Journey & @kitfit1 thanks for the heads up about ryzen , yes i already have the 2700x and yes i could just drop the 3800x into the MB , but the SINGLE CORE performance that i need will not be there for the game that i play mostly , and then if i was still getting FPS drops in that game i would still be looking to upgrade to get a single core performance of 5ghz.
its like cars , manufactures make so many different models , as not one model will do all , even if it is a BMW m5 with all that HP it would be no use to someones granny who just wants to go to the post office down the road each week.

 

[joedeath332]

@joedeath332 As I said it is your cash.
You are running a 1080Ti, and you are doing a VR racing SIM game. Spending £250 on a new motherboard and £350 on a CPU, to gain a few percent.

You could sell the 1080Ti, get a RTX 2080Ti and a 3700X and end up with a better result for a simlar cost once you sell on the 2700X.

Shhhhhh now Shhhhhhh , stop tempting me with that new shiny 2080ti

 

[joedeath332]

There are some R0 stepping CPUs in retail channels now (I have one, same revision as the 9900KS). Older BIOS versions will blue screen in Windows, but I believe you can update the BIOS outside of Windows.

Thanks for the heads up.

 

[joedeath332]

Agree with the above.

The combined strength/performance of the 3700X coupled with the mighty 2080Ti really is a fortuitous option when compared to the comparatively expensive limited gains of swapping to a 9700K and respective motherboard, when paired with your present 1080Ti.

We're not disagreeing that the 9700K/motherboard will give you gains - but those gains are nowhere near the value to performance ratio of dropping in a singular 3700X into you present setup and then pairing it with a 2080Ti powerhouse (when components sold/exchanged etc).

Below may help - skip to 16:30 for 1080Ti performance and then 17:50 for 2080Ti comparison in VR iracing (combined with an 8700K at stock - *i think quick scan through)

very interesting video , and he did the comparisons well , the difference with me is that my VR headset is the HP Reverb with a screen ressolution of 4320 x 2160 ( 2160 x 2160 per eye )
HOWEVER after watching this video i am sort of in the camp of upgrading the 1080ti to a 2080ti and see what happens first of all.
@Plec Thanks for sharing

 

[joedeath332]

Gen 1 and 1+ rely on fast and tight timing RAM. Since you are contemplating in upgrading your RAM, why not start there first. Overcome the Infinity Fabric and see your minimums go higher. Preferably 3466 CL 14. When Ryzen 4000 comes out - upgrade.

does OC sell any that you can link so i can see what ram you mean , or if not then link from the manufacters please

 

[joedeath332]

You mean RAM which comes with a speed of 3466 CL14? No, can't find any. You can go look for some G.Skill FlareX 3200 CL14 and oc it to 3466 CL14, which is fairly easy to do with the 2700X. Or, you can get this . . .

https://www.overclockers.co.uk/team...3600mhz-dual-channel-kit-black-my-08q-tg.html

either try to run it at manufacturer's spec using DOCP or the DRAM Calculator. But, you might be able to run it down to 3466 CL14, again using the Calculator and compare which between settings gives the lowest Memory Latency using Aida64.

Sometimes it is easier to downclock than to oc and still get better memory latency. You want to shoot for at least 65ns. A 3466 CL14 on Gen 1+ will give you about 60 ns.

That RAM kit is perfect for Gen 2 and might work just as well with Gen 3.

Thanks for the info , yip if i change my ram i think i would get the 3600mhz 8 pack memory and downclock it
Is CL short for Cas Latency ??

 

[joedeath332]

@Orange Nexus thanks , will read it later.

 

[joedeath332]

Again you want to be mindful of wasting cash on something that will offer little gain if you did drop in a 3700X or similar, the Ryzen 3xxx series is not nearly as sensitive to RAM speed and timings as 1xxx/2xxx. Micron E-die based Crucial RAM is 50% less in cost and gives you 98-99% of the performance, and works with zero issues with 3xxx CPU's.

Research is key, and if you shift away from your current CPU then you need to shop around that, not what you had previously. If you keep the 2700X, then it is worth investing sometime and maybe some money in sorting the RAM out for better performance.

@Journey once again thanks for the info , after watching the Video below i now find myself looking in a different direction , and that is the direction that i had most likely ruled out due to the expense , and that is to start by changing my GPU from the 1080ti to a 2080ti . as before my VR headset resolution was 1080×1200 per eye it is now 2160 x 2160 per eye.
Then if i still am getting fps issues ill look at the issue again , with most likely dropping a 3800x into the MB .
in the mean time i'm gonna wait for the BF sales and see what appears.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3M0xqWBdvO4&feature=emb_logo