I7 vs Ryzen = Just an irritation

FatRakoon

FatRakoon

FatRakoon

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I have just built a PC for my son, or rather I have robbed my sons PC and upgraded it a fair bit and its a nice litle setup and so I have decided to roc it off him and give him my old I7 setup.

The thing is, that the I7 setup, while obviously slower than the Ryzen, is nowhere near as responsive. Not by much, but its definitely there!

The Specs are:-

I7 = Gigabyte z270 Mobo, i7-7700K - 32GB Corsair - C:=240GB mSata - D:=4TB WD Black - E:=2TB WD Blue / nVidia GTX980 / Creative Recon 3D

Ryzen = MSI 450 Gamer Mobo / Ryzen 7 7800X3D / 32GB Corair / C:=240GB mSata / D:=3TB WDBlack / E:=3GB Samsung / ATI RTX 380 / Creative ZX

Ok, what I have also done, is pretty much made them to be as "The same" as they can be, without just mirroring the HDs. Even the Desktops are identical. Apps installed are the same and well, everything is.

The ONLY thing I can possibly think of, that gives the Ryzen that bit of lag, is the mSata Disks that are installed onto the Motherboard.

The I7 has an EVO 960 - Oh a 250GB not a 240, and the Ryzen has a much cheaper one but its still supposed to have a 550MB/s Read so surely that wont make it into a problem will it?

When I am running apps, there is no slowdown at all, and I am really only having a whine here to simply pick on something and the speed of the ryzen is definitely a good deal quicker than the I7 but when its the more simple things, it really gets on my pip...

For example, just now when I checked the mSata drives I clicked on properties and then device manager and with the I7, its instant, but the Ryzen had about a half second lag for the big page to come up and when I pressed Device manager, it took maybe half a second for the device manager to show up, but it was blank, thjen the title on the windows said that it was not responding and then about another second and it came up! - I know thats a small thing, but it is kind of what it does all the time.

Once thing are in, its instant as expected, and the games that I have put into it, seem to play just fine.

So yes, its just me being a pleb, but its annoying me a little I have to be honest.

I have decided that I am going to splash out on the Quickest mSata that I can get and see how that goes...

I want to keep the Ryzen you see, and let him have the I7, and for now, he has my old 9590 AMD setup and while thats certainly no match for these, I love it.

( One day I will learn to stop writing essays )
 
FatRakoon said:
C:=240GB mSata / D:=3TB WDBlack / E:=3GB Samsung
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3TB is a hard drive, right?

FatRakoon said:
Ryzen = MSI 450 Gamer Mobo / Ryzen 7 7800X3D
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Eh? That's an AM5 CPU with an AM4 motherboard?

FatRakoon said:
The I7 has an EVO 960 - Oh a 250GB not a 240, and the Ryzen has a much cheaper one but its still supposed to have a 550MB/s Read so surely that wont make it into a problem will it?
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The read/write speeds on SATA drives are pretty much meaningless, because SSDs are bottlenecked by SATA rather than by their hardware.

Very bad DRAMless drives with slow controllers will still say that they can read at 500+.

In regards to: could a bad drive impact responsiveness? Yes, it could, but even poor SSDs are usually pretty fast compared to HDDs. Latency is affected by other factors though, like how full the drive is, if the cache has been exhausted and needs to recover, TRIM status, the controller, etc.

FatRakoon said:
For example, just now when I checked the mSata drives I clicked on properties and then device manager and with the I7, its instant, but the Ryzen had about a half second lag for the big page to come up and when I pressed Device manager, it took maybe half a second for the device manager to show up, but it was blank, thjen the title on the windows said that it was not responding and then about another second and it came up! - I know thats a small thing, but it is kind of what it does all the time.
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How is this drive connected, are you using some kind of adapter? Does event viewer have any errors?

FatRakoon said:
I have decided that I am going to splash out on the Quickest mSata that I can get and see how that goes...
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I don't want to labour the point, but why do you want mSATA? If your motherboard has an M.2 slot, you should be filling that with a PCIE NVME drive.
 
Cyber-Mav said:
Since both systems have different model drives then they can't be compared on the storage front.

Also did you install latest amd chipset driver?
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No, I suppose you are correct, but I am sure that the lag would not be as obvious as it is.
And yes, latest Drivers, althoug hthe Supplied CD failed to install them on Win10, I have got them in.

Quartz said:
Is the Crative ZX stealing PCIe lanes?
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Dont know?
I will certainly try alternative options, but I have these cards and they are great cards, so they usually are fine.
I still got an Asus STRIX spare... I will try that, however, I am trying to get hem to a close spec with what I have.

Tetras said:
3TB is a hard drive, right?


Eh? That's an AM5 CPU with an AM4 motherboard?


The read/write speeds on SATA drives are pretty much meaningless, because SSDs are bottlenecked by SATA rather than by their hardware.

Very bad DRAMless drives with slow controllers will still say that they can read at 500+.

In regards to: could a bad drive impact responsiveness? Yes, it could, but even poor SSDs are usually pretty fast compared to HDDs. Latency is affected by other factors though, like how full the drive is, if the cache has been exhausted and needs to recover, TRIM status, the controller, etc.


How is this drive connected, are you using some kind of adapter? Does event viewer have any errors?


I don't want to labour the point, but why do you want mSATA? If your motherboard has an M.2 slot, you should be filling that with a PCIE NVME drive.
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Yes, 3TB Western Digital Black SATA HARD DISK

AM5 CPU with AM4 Board? - No its AM5 Its an MSI B450 Gamer MAX PLUS its AM5

R/W Speds on SATA. Oh sorry, I dont know why I sdaid it, but they are both PCIE NVME Drives... Setup into the Motherboards.
I have a habit of calling them mSATA for some stupid reason! - Sorry about that.

Full drive/Cache etc etc - Sure, I have O&O DeFrag installed on them both and the disks are fully defragged and the M2 disk is of course set to TRIM.
The C: Disks still have well over half still unused and there is only about 1GB of games and programs that are on D: and in both cases E: I have setup with Docs, Pics, Videos etc all pointing to there instead of on the C:

How is the Drive connected.
The M2 is on the Motherboard directly, and the HDs are all SATA and it is set to ACHI of course.

Labour the point about mSATA
Yes, absolutely sorry about that... As I said earlier, I means M2 but its a silly habit I have calling them mSATA cos I also do have lots of mSata drives for one reason or another.

----

The M2 in the I7 PC is about 3 or so years old.
The one in the Ryzen is brand new, I bought it especially for this.

I will however buy another pair tonight to see about that.
I will also swap over the RAM ( I think the I7 is also DDR4? ) and see if that helps.
I dont see a reason why the Creative card would slow it down, but again, I will swap it for an Asus.

Other than that..?

Thanks guys, I will see what comes about with some more messing about

PS
Oh, and the Ryzen install is Fresh, the I7 install was done about 3 years ago, so if anything, that is the onbe that should be questionable, but its flawless.
Before I try a new M2 Disk, I will mirror the Drive onto the Ryzens one, and see what that does?
 
FatRakoon said:
they are both PCIE NVME Drives...
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I don't know any PCIE NVME that are slow enough that you'd have noticeable lag using one, but the latency on DRAMless drives can historically be a bit higher. In TPU's review of the SN770 they did a lot of testing and concluded it was nearly indistinguishable from a DRAM drive, so I suspect they have improved a lot, across all workloads.

A noticeable lag on something like device manager and file managers can sometimes be caused by drives entering a sleep slate, but I don't know what other circumstances you're seeing a big lag.

I have seen comments that higher-end DRAM drives feel noticeably snappier than the cheaper drives like the Kingston NV2 and Crucial P3, but it is not something I can say, because I don't own any.

FatRakoon said:
AM5 CPU with AM4 Board? - No its AM5 Its an MSI B450 Gamer MAX PLUS its AM5
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That's definitely AM4. B450 is an AM4 chipset and I don't think MSI made an AM5 MAX range.
 
Tetras said:
That's definitely AM4. B450 is an AM4 chipset and I don't think MSI made an AM5 MAX range.
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J.H.C!
I was just going to argue the toss, but youre right.. It IS AM4!!!

Well, I never thought of that!

Funny thing is, that my lad had a Ryzen 5 2400G in a HP Setup and so I did get this board as a cheap fix instead of that awful HP one that I was locked out of.
So, this came up as a great loking Board that was cheap as chips.

Then, on enjoying the thing, Ithought I would give him a boost in the CPU department as the 2400 was nice and all, but not that good. So, I asked on here what the best CPU that I could put into it, and the 7800 was kind of the one to go for... I never thoughts for one second that the board was AM4 and I just went for it.

Ah well... Would that explain a slight lag then?

I have certainly had some supposedly great spec PCs and especially high end Laptops that have awful motherboards that utterly cripple their potential thats for sure.
 
To be anything like fair you would need same age and price range CPU, RAM and SSD drives

That intel CPU is almost 8 years old so the Ryzen equivalent is a 1700x
 
FatRakoon said:
J.H.C!
I was just going to argue the toss, but youre right.. It IS AM4!!!

Well, I never thought of that!

Funny thing is, that my lad had a Ryzen 5 2400G in a HP Setup and so I did get this board as a cheap fix instead of that awful HP one that I was locked out of.
So, this came up as a great loking Board that was cheap as chips.

Then, on enjoying the thing, Ithought I would give him a boost in the CPU department as the 2400 was nice and all, but not that good. So, I asked on here what the best CPU that I could put into it, and the 7800 was kind of the one to go for... I never thoughts for one second that the board was AM4 and I just went for it.

Ah well... Would that explain a slight lag then?

I have certainly had some supposedly great spec PCs and especially high end Laptops that have awful motherboards that utterly cripple their potential thats for sure.
Click to expand...

I think you've got something mixed up as a 7800X3D simply will not work in your AM4 B450 motherland. Did you get a 5800X3D perhaps?
 
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In this thread: 10 posts in we still don't have a clear idea what hardware OP is actually running.

It sounds to me like spinning disks is the first suspect - disconnect them while you get things configured. Don't install software or games on spinners either. Just data i.e. photos, videos, etc.

Regarding the sound card, it's not the brand/model that's the issue, it's the fact it might be stealing lanes from the graphics card if you have it in the x8 lane PCIe slot. Make sure it's in one of the PCIe x1 (tiny) slot.
 
MartinPrince said:
I think you've got something mixed up as a 7800X3D simply will not work in your AM4 B450 motherland. Did you get a 5800X3D perhaps?
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Oh hell. Well, I was jut about to call you a liar, and I powered it up and yeah, its a 5800x3d not a 7800x3d
Its a Ryzen 7 and it was a Ryzen 5 so maybe I got confused on that?

My bad.



LuckyBenski said:
In this thread: 10 posts in we still don't have a clear idea what hardware OP is actually running.

It sounds to me like spinning disks is the first suspect - disconnect them while you get things configured. Don't install software or games on spinners either. Just data i.e. photos, videos, etc.

Regarding the sound card, it's not the brand/model that's the issue, it's the fact it might be stealing lanes from the graphics card if you have it in the x8 lane PCIe slot. Make sure it's in one of the PCIe x1 (tiny) slot.
Click to expand...

I have already mentioned the hardware in my first post. I made a mistake of saying 7800 when its a 5800 but other than that, I have said.

The HD that games and apps are on, are WD Blacks in both machines. They are quick enough, plus the O/S and all system stuff, is on the M2 drive, so spinning up should not be a problem.

And yes, the Audio cards are in the smaller slots.

The Audio onboard the MSI/Ryzen setup is bloody awful. when I was trying out a few games, it was seriously missing out on lots of sounds and cuttin other sounds out, and was frankly no Gamer Audio considering its supposed to be a gamer board. THAT was laggy as hell, but I rarely use O{nBoard Audio these days... Well, ever since my first ever soundcard to be honest.
 
FatRakoon said:
Yeah I realise my mistake. I dont know why I put 7800 but I think I put it down to that being Ryzen 5 then 7 and maybe thats why I put 7800 instead of 5800 ? Not sure.
Feel an idiot, but then again, nothing new there!
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Looking at your other thread you got a 5800X3D - a great chip.

Might be worth updating the BIOS on your motheboard.

Are you running your RAM at the rated speeds? Setting XMP in the BIOS should do the trick.

In the other thread you mentioned running a RAMDISK and a RAID setup with your SSDs. Is that still the case?

Also, try removing the soundcard as it could be sharing lanes with your SSD depending on what slots they are in.
 
dave28 said:
To be anything like fair you would need same age and price range CPU, RAM and SSD drives

That intel CPU is almost 8 years old so the Ryzen equivalent is a 1700x
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I seriously doubt it

This setup was a Ryzen 5 2400G... I have rebuilt it back up now in its original form and case etc, as I have upgraded everything in it for my son, and its far, far slower than the intel.

The 1700x is quicker, but it still a chunk load slower than the i7

My son is currently using my old AM3 9590 and that is also way quicker than the Ryzen 2400

But yes, to compare them I would need them to be closer, but then I am only knocking up a PC for my son, and I was comparing a newer build to my old I7 and again while the newer build is slower, it has a lag that I dont like, that is simply not there with the I7. That is all.
MeatLoaf said:
Looking at your other thread you got a 5800X3D - a great chip.

Might be worth updating the BIOS on your motheboard.

Are you running your RAM at the rated speeds? Setting XMP in the BIOS should do the trick.

In the other thread you mentioned running a RAMDISK and a RAID setup with your SSDs. Is that still the case?

Also, try removing the soundcard as it could be sharing lanes with your SSD depending on what slots they are in.
Click to expand...

Yes, it is.. I took advise from here on what I could go with and I was impressed and so thats kind of why I wanted to keep it and let my son have the I7 instead.

BIOS is updated

RAM - Oh, heck no, the RAM is slower, but again, thats what I had... There was 2x8GB in the original machine and I realised that I have 2x8GB and 2x4GB and the 8GB are paired with teh 2x8GB that was in it, to give me 4x8GB and the 2x4GB have gone into the orignal 2400G PC. I also know that the RAM is NOT as quick as it coule be.

RAMDISK and RAID - No, thats on my own main machine... I have neither on either of these two.

SoundCard.
The onboard Audio on this Mobo is shameful. its fine for music and video, but it struggles under anything even remotely taxing... I played SoulStorm, a very old game nowadays and the audio even on that old game was clearly struggling... Half the sounds were either not played, or were cut off. Absolutely useless and so Im definitely going yo use a Sound Card... I will move it about for sure, but I already tried that.

Right now, I have left them both running and this way at least they will fully update themsevles and it will give it time to fully settle in... Maybe the fact that I have installed it and threw so much stuff onto it from the I7 and the I7 is already settled in, maybe its still doing some stuff?
 
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