If I wanted to go ATi?

[Duff-Man]

People, can we leave the new cards out of it please. I want something to better a 2 year old card, so I don't think we need to resort to stuff that's not even out yet.

I just need to know which existing (and therefor, cheap as chips in a few days) card is the one that beats the 8800GTX. I must say, for all the "ATI rules, NV sucks" stuff I see round here, there seems to be a lack of a simple answer as to WHICH ATI card >8800GTX.
Like I say, I do not mind using two of them if there is no single card that can do it, but the 2x cards MUST work with the above games.

Wow. Where to start?

So, seeing as the new nvidia cards appear to not be a tremendous upgrade, and based on how most people here reckon ATI is WAY faster and cheaper and better, and kinder to puppies than nasty old NV.

So, you start off by pointing out that people are raving about the new ATI cards, and use it as justification for your switch, and yet 20 posts later you decide that you *aren't* interested in them.

...I must say, for all the "ATI rules, NV sucks" stuff I see round here...

Pretty rich and self-superior comment for someone who also says:

and since neither SLI or Xfire is anything but a scam for idiots (or people who play the 2 games it works in), I gotta go with the quicked single card solution

Your posts seem to assume that it is somehow our collective responsibility to inform you, in the manner you desire (and not the manner you imply with your text) about what would be the best solution for your particulars. Well here's a whacky suggestion - do your own damn research. Use the site search engine and maybe even google. Not really very hard to find benchmarks, you know. And try a better tone - might get you more help.



3870x2 is probably the card you're looking for by the way, but I wouldn't upgrade from an 8800GTX. x-fire and SLI have 'problems' even when they 'don't'. The new ATI cards are what you want.

 

[thegoonden]

Based on the specs, the 3870x2 should basically embarrass the 8800, but the benches do not bear this out, this is beacause of what I have seen said round here a few times, that ATi stream processors are not quite as powerful as NV ones, so it takes more of them, clocked faster. Either way, it's why I'm asking for wisdom instead of just trawling about review sites (actually, I usually use the wiki gpu comparison pages to get a better idea than from benches, but the stats are hard to compare between nv and ati).


Sorry about the attitude, I appreciate it's not glowing. I am suffering a fairly basic frustration with my machine's overall performance, and it's coming out of me in spades.


The general consensus round these parts is that ATI>Nvidia (and also that Intel>AMD), and I think I want to be proved wrong, shown the error of my ways. I'm a total know all, and when someone tells me I'm wrong I tend to just say "show me the right way then" and refuse to budge until I'm shown.

It was actually the post chastising me for my attitude to multi-GPU setups, that prompted this thread. If stuffing this mobo full of ATI cards blows the 8800 away, then I'm up for it. However, I do need reassuring, because if a single ATI card is slower, and a given game doesn't "get" xfire, then I would be downgrading. Is there a nice simple "yes/no" list for xfire compatibility somewhere? (I have looked, but only found short lists from benching runs rather than a definitive work on the subject).

I'm so "into" my mindset, that I actually built the winbox in my sig to replace the machine that is now the linux one (albeit, that it did have the 8800gtx), purely because of constant sightings of "intel>AMD" posts. TBH, my personal opinion, after the move is that it's swings and roundabouts. Overall the Intel is quicker, but there's something "odd" about how the system runs that sort of bugs me after years of AMD use.....really hard to describe in full, though I've mentioned "lagginess" elsewhere.


Anyway, I do actually appreciate being brought to book for being a brat, I can be a miserable sod at times.
I will look at the new ATI's, but I do not particularly want to buy another top end brand new card, since the 8800gtx is still quite new (feb), that's why I was asking about the older ATI cards, which are (one would assume) about to become free gifts with cornflakes.

 

[Duff-Man]

Sorry about the attitude, I appreciate it's not glowing. I am suffering a fairly basic frustration with my machine's overall performance, and it's coming out of me in spades.

...happens to us all sometimes

The general consensus round these parts is that ATI>Nvidia (and also that Intel>AMD), and I think I want to be proved wrong

I'm not sure that's true. As a flag-waving neutral I'd say that nvidia probably still have the upper hand in the current generation cards. ATI look to be winning-out the new generation though. As a summary:

For the past year or so, ATI have avoided the high-end of the market, and focussed on the mid-range market. This is the main reason there is no single obvious replacement for your ageing GTX from the red camp.

Nvidia have released a beast of a GPU, which comes in two flavours - the GTX280 for around £450 and the GTX260 for around £300. Both of these offer significant improvement over your 8800GTX, but at a heavy price (in pounds and also in heat/power/noise).

ATI appear to have a more elegant solution: The 4850 is a mid-range card which will likely cost around £140, and offer better performance than an 8800GTS. The 4870 is a high-mid range card, expected to cost around £190ish. Benchmarks are thin, but it should definitely outperform your GTX. By how much, we will have to see. People interested in high-end performance are excited by the prospect of putting two 4850s or 4870s together to get a potentially faster and cheaper solution than nvidia offer (I'm not one of them...)


As for multi-GPU solutions:

Personally, I don't rate them. I've had two SLI configs, and while they really do up the grunt in terms of average-FPS benchmarks (in games that properly support them), there are still problems. For example, frames are not always output evenly. Since the eye catches the maximum gap between frames rather than the raw number of frames as the thing which indicates smoothness, we find that 50fps (say) on an SLI setup does not 'feel' as smooth as 50fps on a single GPU. Of course this does not show up in benchmarks.

From a technical standpoint I prefer ATIs crossfire solution (even if it is a little less efficient). Each card automatically contributes towards the rendering of each frame, so you don't get the problems indicated above. There are other issues though, such as 'microstuttering' which can apparently be disruptive to gameplay.

Anyway - I would still recommend staying clear of multi-GPU solutions. That said, ATI will actually have a high-end card out in a couple of months: The 'r700'. It's rumoured to use a memory-sharing technique for its two GPUs, which should allow them both to act as a single unit (at a slight performance penalty). If this is true, it might make for a very nice card.


Anyway, if it's any help, I still have an 8800GTX that I bought on launch day 20 months ago. I have the cash to buy a GTX280 if I wanted, but I probably won't upgrade it until either nvidia produces a lower-power version of their GTX280 (they're working on one), and I see what ATIs r700 brings to the table.

So, I guess after that long post my advice would be: Just wait, for now. If you want a real boost from your current rig, the new generation is really the only way to go.

 

[Randell]

Also don't assume the newer ATI cards will be expensive, They wont be. The 4870 is rumoured to be the same as if not a tad cheaper than the 3870X2 and faster, it is a single GPU solution and is faster than the 800GTX.

And do you know what? You will find out about the 4850 and 4870 over the next week.

If that is too long for you to wait, then just bite the bullet and get a GT260. I still would have it over a 9800GX2. It's more efficeint idle. It's a single gpu, it is more powerful.

 

[thegoonden]

Thanks, that more or less agrees with what I've been rolling round in me head (despite what's been pouring out of it).

The thing is, aside from Crysis, and about 3 corners at Le Mans in GTR2, nothing phases this machine as is (precious little phased it when it was the 5600X2).....except F*ing MS Train Sim, it's THE most tortuously badly written kludge, and on top of that, it relies on constant z-plane motion, the hardest thing for a computer to draw since the entire image needs to be completely re calulated on every single frame.....AND it's so easy to notice and get annoyed by jerkiness owing to the nature of the gameplay. The worst bit is, that it's CPU limited more than GFX, the difference between a 6200le (UGH!) and an 8800GTS, was basically that I could turn AA and AIF all the way up, with all that off, the two cards gave very simillar results. I rather suspect multi-gpu's would be a total waste on this game.
A six year old game that almost flumoxes a fairly up to date 2007/8 spec machine, LOL, it's GP2 all over again.

 

[slimsymeat]

GPL, GTR2 and Race 07 all do not support crossfire.
So you need a single card solution. I cant say if an x2 will be better because I haven't tried one but I've 2 3870's and see no gains in the above games. rFactor how ever scales to nicely around 90%.
Hope that helps.