Improving turntable sound quality on AV receiver

[StartWars]

I recently bought a Project Primary E turntable, which is connected to a Project Phono Box MM,
a Pioneer SX-323 AV receiver Tannoy TFX 5.1 speakers, and a BK Gemini subwoofer.

Most vinyls I've listened to sound good but I've noticed that heavier sections can sound a bit muffled. Are there any tweaks I can make to my current setup to improve sound quality? I usually keep the AV receiver in auto surround mode.

 

[hornetstinger]

Use direct bypass mode.

Or add a stereo integrated amp just for left and right channels. You will need pre outs on your avr for left and right, and ideally power amp inputs on the stereo amp

 

[StartWars]

What does direct bypass change? Is it better to use this mode for just music or surround sound movies as well? My AV receiver also has a direct and pure direct mode. There's also a stereo mode but this didn't make any difference to the quality.

 

[hornetstinger]

Pure direct, stereo, and direct are different modes, some disable all time alignment, room eq, bass management, speaker distances levels, phase, another still uses bass management.

Read the manual what those modes do as different av manufacturers set own way.

It also depends if you want stereo speakers only no sub for music, if your mains are capable of low frequency, some don't like a subwoofer for music, or your sub may be better for movies than for stereo so pure direct may be better.

But trying pure direct bypasses all processing so it will be cleanest signal, so if room eq is a bit messed up and makes it sound worse (plausible) than trying this out first is best step.

 

[Kei]

The most immediate and obvious differences will come from changing the stylus/cartridge out for something superior. In your OP, you didn't state what cartridge you are using, but based on what I can find, it probably came with an ortofon OM1S which is a very basic entry level cartridge.

Let's just say there is a huge array of cartridges to choose from. Something like an ortofon 2M red or blue would be a decent improvement, though there are plenty of other manufacturers out there to choose from. (Prices might shock you though, as the sky is the limit)

Also don't forget that you will need to make sure that you have set the following things up properly in order to ensure correct tracking:
-Cartridge alignment - using a protractor, every cartridge is different and you need to check this if you make any changes
-Vertical tracking force - set on the rear of the tone arm, referred to as VTF, the cartridge will have a working range. An OM1S is 1.5-2.0g with the recommended force at 1.75g (multiply by 10 for mN)
-Vertical tracking angle - cant see an adjustment on the turntable for this
-Anti-skate - though I can't see any adjustment for this in the manual for the project primary E manual

 

[lucid]

You've discovered the limits of your amp and speaker package, along with the limit of the cartridge.

What's happening is that the amp's power supply (PSU) and power reservoir capacitors (caps) are struggling to keep up with the demand when the music passages get dense. The sound stage collapses a bit. You might also be hitting the limits of what the Tannoys can resolve. They're AV surround speakers rather than Hi-Fi speakers.

A new cartridge will certainly get more information off the disc (* BTW, it's 'records' and not vinyls), but you'll still hit the bottleneck of the limitation of the £200 AV receiver.

The suggestion of switching to Pure Direct or some other non-surround listening mode is a good one. Give the amp less to do so there's a lower power draw from the PSU and caps.

Pure Direct will play through just the front L and R speakers. It won't use the sub. For you, with small satellite speakers with limited bass output, that'll sound crap. You need the sub too. I think you might need Straight Decode mode to play Front L&R + sub but without any additional processing. The amp also has Stereo mode, but that still allows additional signal processing which gets in the way of the music.

Any further tweaks are going to involve you doing something physical to the setup rather than simply pressing a couple of buttons.

The first thing I'd do is set up the sub manually. That means turning the sub volume control all the way down, then listening to some music and increasing the sub's volume level bit-by-bit until the sub blends with the satellites but doesn't overpower them.

You might also want to have a look at where the front speakers are located. If they're up in the room corners then I'd think about moving them. Corners are bad places for most speakers. Standing waves build up there.


* The word vinyl describes the material they're made from, and it's one of those odd words where the plural is the same as the singular. e.g. "Here's all my vinyl" could describe one album or thousands.

 

[StartWars]

Thanks for the suggestions. I haven't tried tweaking the turntable yet, but the Proejct Primary E was designed for plug in and play with minimum fuss.

I don't see an option for straight decode, do you know where I would find it? Also, is it better to use auto surround when watching surround sound movies?

 

[lucid]

Thanks for the suggestions. I haven't tried tweaking the turntable yet, but the Proejct Primary E was designed for plug in and play with minimum fuss.

Yes, but that doesn't mean you can't change the cartridge.

I don't see an option for straight decode, do you know where I would find it?

Download the pdf version of the VSX-323 manual. Press CTRL + F to bring up the search feature. Type in the box what you need to find. Use the arrows to tab through each instance of the searched word or phrase.

Also, is it better to use auto surround when watching surround sound movies?

Better than what, exactly?

Most AV receivers will recognise digital bitstream signals (DD/DTS/Dolby TrueHD/DTS-MA) and then default to the appropriate decoding mode. Where a signal is stereo though there are no such data flags. The amp can't tell the difference between the stereo signal it gets from your turntable and the stereo it gets from Spotify or your TV source. It doesn't know whether the stereo it's getting from your TV source wants to be listened to in Dolby ProLogic II Movie or 5 channel stereo or plain stereo or any of the other modes available. You make that choice by setting the Surround Mode.

Without reading up, I don't know if your 323 does this too, but my Yamaha and most of the rest of the AV amps I've installed have a feature where it's possible to set the default decoding mode per physical input. For example, my Sky box is attached to HDMI 2. The default decoding mode I have set is DPL II Movie for when it's receiving stereo audio. When the channel is changed to one that carries DD then the amp detects that and switches itself to Dolby Digital.

Have a read of your manual and play around with some of the settings.

 

[StartWars]

This is the only manual I could find online: http://www.pioneerhongkong.com.hk/file/product539-228-download.pdf

On page 28 it mentions straight decode as a surround mode but doesn't say how to select it. I pressed Stereo ALCT to cycle through the different modes on my receiver but straight decode didn't come up.

As for my other question, I was wondering if it would be better to use the direct mode instead of auto surround but it sounds like direct and pure direct are only for stereo sound?

 

[lucid]

This is the only manual I could find online: http://www.pioneerhongkong.com.hk/file/product539-228-download.pdf

That'll do.

On page 28 it mentions straight decode as a surround mode but doesn't say how to select it. I pressed Stereo ALCT to cycle through the different modes on my receiver but straight decode didn't come up.

Have you tried this? Looks like there are some other buttons with a cycle option.

As for my other question, I was wondering if it would be better to use the direct mode instead of auto surround but it sounds like direct and pure direct are only for stereo sound?

Ah, now you've explained it better I can see what you're getting at. Thanks.

It's really source- and signal dependent. For example, I'll listen to streamed music or CDs through my AV receiver. Sometimes they're just on in the background, so I find it useful to play them in All Channel Surround. If I want to listen to something properly though, I'll flick across to Pure Direct for CDs because my main speakers can do decent bass. For lesser quality sources I might still stick to Stereo + Sub because there are some extra facilities I might use to tweak the sound.

For multichannel bitstream sources - these are things in DD/DTS/Dolby True HD/DTS-MA - then those modes are effectively Direct because I'm listening to what's coming off the disc without any additional effects processing. If I had 7.1, and was playing a 5.1 DD source and wanted extended surround, then I'd select say DPLIIx Movie. If it was a 5.1 DTS source then I'd select DTS-ES, or leave the amp on EX/ES mode to let it select appropriately for DD or DTS itself.

You're right though, Pure Direct really is for stereo sources, and really only when you have speakers that can do decent bass. Direct is something I might use for a concert disc where it was recorded in stereo, so would probably sound closest to the original if I played it back in stereo too.

 

[StartWars]

Yeah I've tried those buttons to cycle through all the different modes but straight decode doesn't come up. Pressing auto/direct switches between auto surround, direct and pure direct. ALC/Stereo toggled between stereo, stereo alc and PCM and the advanced surround button has preset modes such as action, concert etc.

I primarily use my receiver for gaming and watching blurays and have always left it in auto surround.

 

[lucid]

Two thoughts on this...

#1 - 'Straight' is typed in a lightweight font in the user manual compared to the other settings in the list (see page 28). Does this denote that the display doesn't show anything for a decoding mode? i.e. does it simply show you what the source signal is; PCM, Analogue etc?

#2 - Does DIRECT mode keep the sub playing? The manual says that if you want to hear the sound in its truest form then Direct and Pure Direct are the modes to use. (see page 29)

 

[Kei]

Thanks for the suggestions. I haven't tried tweaking the turntable yet, but the Proejct Primary E was designed for plug in and play with minimum fuss.

It's always best to check absolutely everything related to tracking on a turntable before using it. If it's not setup correctly, not only will it sound poor but it can also damage your records and the stylus.

Easiest way to test if it's the turntable/record would be to play the same track using another source and see if it still sounds muffled. If it sounds muffled with both sources, you know the issue is with the receiver/speakers. If the record sounds poor but the other source sounds fine, you know the issue lies with the turntable or the record itself.

 

[StartWars]

Two thoughts on this...

#1 - 'Straight' is typed in a lightweight font in the user manual compared to the other settings in the list (see page 28). Does this denote that the display doesn't show anything for a decoding mode? i.e. does it simply show you what the source signal is; PCM, Analogue etc?

#2 - Does DIRECT mode keep the sub playing? The manual says that if you want to hear the sound in its truest form then Direct and Pure Direct are the modes to use. (see page 29)

Can confirm that Direct mode still keeps the sub active but pure mode disables it. Still sounds flat and lacking detail to me like you're hearing it underwater. Stereo mode sounded a bit punchier but still distorts during heavier sections. It's more noticeable on some records more than others. Should the phono box I bought not have made a bigger difference?

 

[lucid]

"Bigger difference"? The Project Phono Box MM does two jobs. It balances (equalises) the audio signal, and then it boosts the level.

The sound needs to be equalised because of the way vinyl works. When mastering for a vinyl pressing, the bass content has to be reduced dramatically. This is so that the stylus doesn't jump out of the groove on the bass beats.

The boost is needed because the signal level generated by a cartridge is tiny compared to a line level source such as a CD player. Without the pre-amp's boost, your Pioneer would be on full volume to hear maybe 1/10th of that you'd get with a normal source at -40dB. After the pre-amp has done its work, the signal will drive a line level input okay, though it will still be quieter than your other sources.

The Project Phono pre-amp is decent. It does the job without polluting the sound. I'm not sure what you mean by bigger difference. What extra magic do you think it should be doing?


I can think of a couple of things that would cause some distortion to the sound, but they would be symptoms of an incorrectly fitted/adjusted cartridge, or running the signal in to the wrong sort of input on the amp, or having a different phono pre-amp than the one you mentioned. All of them would affect nearly every record you play though, and you said some sound good, so I don't think from what you've written, and from knowing the gear you have, that they're likely causes.

Have you kept the stylus clean? Has the cantilever been damaged in some way? Are these used LPs you're playing, and have you heard them played on another system?

I think we've got to the point here where you need to go back and visit your dealer. The first stage is to have a chat with them and arrange to take your pre-amp box (+PSU) along with a couple of the LPs that exhibit this dull and underwater effect. Take a good one along too for comparison. A 3rd party opinion will help to get some perspective on the issues.

 

[lucid]

The Ptoject Phono Box MM does two jobs. It balances (equalises) the audio signal , and then it boosts the level.

The sound needs to be equalised because of the way vinyl works. When mastering for a vinyl pressing, the bass content has to be reduced dramatically. This is so that the stylus doesn't jump out of the groove on the bass beats.

The boost is needed because the signal level generated by a cartridge stylus is tiny compared to a Blu-ray player. It makes the signal string enough to drive a line input.

The Project Phono pre-amp are decent. They do the job without polluting the sound.