Irish accents in English and the number 3 - what's the reason for the difference?

[Angilion]

Some (maybe all, I don't know) Irish accents completely ignore the 'h' in words related to the number 3. Tree, tirty, etc.

I'm idly curious as to why. It's only for words related to the number three, not other words with 'th' in them.

It doesn't matter. It's just a feature of some accents. I'm just curious as to the reason because I have a mild interest in linguistics and I generally like to know the reason why things are how they are. An influence from Irish Gaelic, maybe?

 

[Angilion]

turdy tree

I stumble upon a really interesting Youtube channel on linguistics. It's mainly focused on English, but might be interesting for you. [..]

I stumbled on the same channel a few months back when browsing around for stuff on Old English. IIRC, it was on Youtube's "videos probably in some way related to the video you're watching" list when I was listening to the_miracle_aligner's Old English version of "Pumped Up Kicks". Notable for actually being Old English, not modern English with some incorrectly used 'thou' and '-eth" (which aren't Old English anyway) and wrongly labelled as Old English.

You're right that it's an interesting channel for me.


EDIT:
In the same spirit, here's a video from another of the linguistics channels that I find interesting (ABAlphaBeta). It might be interesting for you, since you found Simon Roper's channel interesting.

This video (from the same channel) I found interesting for a related subject - translation and how interpretation is part of translation. Even a literal translation that's readable still includes interpretation from either the translator, the reader or both.

 

[Angilion]

Some (maybe all, I don't know) Irish accents completely ignore the 'h' in words related to the number 3. Tree, tirty, etc. [..]

Its not all Irish accents, they are quite varied. My missus is from Derry and she doesn't do this (none of them do) but it is more prevalent the further South you go as we have friends from Dublin and Cork that do say it like this.

Thanks - that answers my secondary question about how widespread it is in Irish accents.

I guess a comparison might be Londoners pronouncing 'th' as an 'f' ..... "Stick firteen quid on Fird Eye in the free firty at 'Aydock son" (thats how Londoners talk y'know).
I've never spoken to anyone from outside London that does this but note that its also similar sounding words.

Interesting. I remember some London accents along those lines from back when I lived down there. Now I'm wondering about the development of the word "three" in English over time. I'll look into that.

I would guess for Irish, it might be because they are saying an English word and they have moved from Gaelic where the combination of letters and sounds is different. This has been taught the same way for many years so has probably stuck.

That was a possibility I considered:

[..]An influence from Irish Gaelic, maybe?

But I know nothing about Irish Gaelic so I've no idea how likely it is.

It might explain the differences within Ireland. You say it's not in northern Irish accents and becomes more prevalent the further south you go. That sounds to me like it could match up with the amount of influence Irish Gaelic would have on English spoken in Ireland.

 

[Angilion]

They don't, you're just not hearing it. If you watch closely, you will often see their mouths make the correct shape.
TH is a voiceless dental fricative, which takes a precise amount of tongue pressure to ennunciate. It's easy to underapply pressure, but a slight overpressure or variance in placement will dampen the fricative element below casual perceptive levels, even though it's there.

Play around with the accent. It's far easier to feel it happening with yourself, than it is to describe it.

I'm now talking to myself and it's your fault

You're right about that part too. We don't usually think about the mechanics of speaking, we just do it. It was easier to try it and feel the placement and pressure that I usually ignore when speaking.

Thanks for the very useful answer.

There is no 'th' sound in Irish.

That would fit with my initial pencilled-in idea for the reason:

[..] An influence from Irish Gaelic, maybe?

This is part of the reason why I like these forums. You can usually get decent answers to a question here.

EDIT: The question popped into my head because I've been watching a lot of long videos recently in which the creator and narrator has one of the Irish accents like this. I've since noticed that it also applies to some other words beginning with 'th', such as "through". I only noticed it in the number initially, but it's not just the number.

 

[Angilion]

Why is it that a percentage of the English population think theirs is the Alpha accent and all others are inferior?

The same reason why there's a percentage of people thinking that way about every accent in every language. It mostly boils down to what a person is used to.

I was a shandy-drinking softie southerner for decades before I moved to the grim uncivilised wilderness up north and I have mostly retained a light west Sussex accent. Some people around here have a negative view of my accent. Some people around here have a positive view of my accent. Some people around here josh me about it in a friendly way.

As is the case for many accents in many places. Like, for example, southern Irish accents when speaking English. Although southern Irish accents when speaking English are generally seen as being amongst the best of the numerous accents when speaking English.

 

[Angilion]

Welsh has a "dd" sound which is the same as the "th" in "those". It also has the "th", as in "thin".

We need a conversation on the great vowel shift next. That's just weird.

Blood, rhymes with mood. Obviously.

I have no idea why the great vowel shift happened. Does anybody know?

 

[Angilion]

I read and enjoyed a series of historical fiction books in which the central character was a Roman living during the time of Augustus. The author did a good job of making it historically plausible, but it's wholly fictional with real historical events only as a backdrop. The central character is a low grade plebian who has the very sensible (for the time and place) policy of staying well out of politics. The books are mainly detective stories. The Falco series, by Lindsey Davis.

Anyway...the bit relevant to this thread. Part of the first book is set in the newly Roman province of Britannia. There's a passing comment from the central character about how one of the natives, from a tribe from another part of the province, spoke Latin with the most annoying accent he'd ever heard. In the audiobook version they gave that character a Birmingham accent.

EDIT: Man, I was tired when I posted that yesterday. The emperor in the books was Vespasian, not Augustus. A significantly different time. Although staying well out of politics would still have been a sound plan.