Is future totalitarian?

[Enkore]

Given the Covid pandemic it seems like we discovered a major hole in the western societies armour. It is individualism exasperated by capitalist market ideology. The ultimate package of everyone for themselves and trying to make profit off anything - regardless of consequences on wider scale.

We see the combination everywhere we look, it seems like USA is really shining through. A president who will gaslight whole nation just to serve individualistic goals. A population that refuses to be even mildly inconvenienced by wearing a mask to protect others.

Companies that put profits before well being of population. Months into pandemic we're still low on PPE. Many refused to change output capacities thinking that it would not be monetarily beneficial. If you look at US economic response, they are basically pumping stock market to make it seem everything is great. Issue is that lower/middle class barely benefit from this - apart from retirement plans which a minority of Americans have. The rich are getting their pocket lined once again, the others will foot the bill.

Given the trend of global warming, anti-biotic resistance (again due to need to squeeze every penny, dumping it into all food sources). This is one of many diseases or other cataclysmic diseases headed our way.

If we do not adapt into a more 'socialist' society which puts well being of ALL people in the nation above short term individual goals. We are doomed to be one day taken over by totalitarian regimes like what China is. They are a lot more efficient in these events, through horror means.

We can easily combine democracy with being more socialist orientated, capitalism and short term goal individualism will possibly lead us to disaster. Where we will be over-taken or left vounrable to totalitarian regimes.

 

[Enkore]

There's nothing wrong with capitalism - only the version that we've implemented, which I would say is closer to socialism in some ways (not allowing businesses to fail for example, and manipulating the money supply as you mentioned).

Well capitalism in its current shape or form eventually will not lead to anything good. Its ultimate goal is to become a monopoly, squeeze as much profit from product at most humanely possible little cost. The wealth would simply move up and create even greater gap. So much so that it will fall in on itself sooner or later. Think of Amazon, it will soon at this rate became the monopoly in internet shopping, the wealth they have is amazing - now look at their working conditions. Look at their business practices when they went after publishers and wrecked them. Soon Amazon will be the only place to work at - I'm sure they'll not raise wages for their employees.

The nature of capitalism we're in is that a poor product can still succeed due to cash reserves and market manipulations. Company A could spend 1 billion and have superior product. Company B spent 1 billion lobbying politicians and has crap product. Company B wins because of favourable laws that it got. I mean capitalism would work if we replace capital in sense of money to in sense of people. Thats pretty much socialism, investing in capital of the people to make better products etc. Distributing wealth to lower levels so they can spend more and enrich these companies rather than being hoarded by the few individuals that do not spend it.

 

[Enkore]

Indeed - I think we're agreeing here.



I don't think many people are really advocating a purely capitalist system with no state (not anyone worth listening to anyway). The issue that I have is when people point to our current situation and say "capitalism's broken, and the answer is socialism". I've been very critical of how we've run our economy for a while now, but I still believe very much in the free market.

I actually think socialism is basically capitalism in its healthy shape and form. Socialism does not eradicate free market - you're thinking communism I guess? Socialism puts emphasis on the people over financial capital. Its essentially capitalism where capital (money) is replaced by capital (people). Which is honestly is correct way to do things. Companies that have most capital (in sense of people, knowledge etc) will produce the best products. Free education, healthcare only stimulates and promotes growth of capital (people) to then push economy forward.

The major backlash you see against this way of thinking just further shows the ugly face of current capitalism. The current heavyweights of capital (money) will throw their money to preserve themselves since they have no desire to then need to compete in future. And they are succesful in that sense which is again another downside. They represent an overall worse system and yet due to capital are able to brain wash people to believe that socialism is bad for them somehow.

They are doing exactly what true capitalist system where money is key is set up to do. They will use all their current capital to shut down something thats better in order to preserve their current capital.

 

[Enkore]

Well that's a fundamental issue I have with socialism. As you say, it seems like it should basically be a free market where everyone wants to help each other. Maybe you can see where the problem is here - you need everyone to want to help each other.

Not true, maybe in couple hundred or thousand years when humanity manages to control their own greed will this be plausible.

There is no need to help each other out at all in what I'm proposing. Its simply replacing power of money with power of people and their knowledge. You will see companies competing just as much against each other, you'll just see more beneficial by-products where these companies will literally pay for top tier education from young age to population - to harvest knowledge capital later on to gain edge over competition. Same goes for food ,health etc. A sick, hungry, deprived population will not be beneficial to the economy. Same is true now but in current system people are too short sighted and only focused on short term $$$.

Its a society where companies are morally accountable to their employees and society as a whole.

I should add, I don't really understand this bit. Money is required to enable the exchange of goods and services.

Money will remain, all I mean by this is that today for example you say 'I'm a billionaire' and that is seen as having lots of capital. Tomorrow I want capital billionaires to say 'I have one million employees that are highly educated, motivated, healthy and loyal to the company - and we are able to innovate x2 than our competition' As a bi-product of that I am also a 'money' billionaire. Simply being money billionaire should stop meaning as much as it does today. You can be money billionaire and yet have zero capital. In this system there will also be much fever billionaires (money) because in competition of capital (people) you will have to disperse so much money that it will be extremely difficult to hoard it at the top and stay competitive against other companies

 

[Enkore]

Alright, well it's a nice idea but I still don't see it happening outside of Star Trek. As you point out, at the very least I highly doubt I'll live to see that day

We already have parts of that implemented today. Free education, healthcare is exactly this. Companies pay taxes => government provides free education with that money + health => raise a population that smarter and healthier => said population goes to work and provides innovation => increase of capital in market.

If you have dumb population - you will never leave industrial or agrarian society and economy. If you have dumb and sick population. Well...

We're not that far away already. Hence why you see such a huge attack on 'socialism' lately. All we need is to force companies into investing more into their employees and create competition for 'employees'. We already have that for the high end professionals, we need to push it to everyone else. Because otherwise we will bleed the 'lower end' of any knowledge and health on top of it. Try working at Amazon in USA. Its a dead end in future for society and country as whole.

As always I said, it seems like the wealthy enjoy socialism while the poor are stuck with capitalism.

 

[Enkore]

I have no issue with things like education and healthcare being nationalised. The free market generates value as free markets do best, and the state takes some of that to pay for the stuff that it should pay for. No problem with that, although of course the level of state ownership is a hotly contested subject. But you still need a 'capitalist' (meaning using currency) free market to generate the value. That's exactly where I think socialist ideals fall over - you need an incentive for people to be productive, and cash is the only one that most people find acceptable when push comes to shove. The fact that people accept that they should hand over a certain amount in taxes is so that they have a functional society around them.

Like I said, money will remain. I'm simply proposing fixing current screwed up capitalism. I want to create a place where people focus on their knowledge, skills (capital) and that will directly lead to ability to have money. In current system you have scientists making a penny with all that knowledge capital. Its simply not fair.

The existence of money slavery is also a key problem that allows companies to offer so little to their workers. We are an advanced society, why people have to literally slave away for basic food and roof on head is beyond me. Its part of problem. We'll always have lazy people who dont want anything. Provide them with absolute basic needs and it will open up so much work for everyone else at higher rate. The incentive to work 40 hours a week just to buy food and live in tiny room is stupid. Provide same for lets say 10 hours a week, leave motivation to learn and move up in world. Open up more places for others who want to. Let those who are fine with basic needs to be.

Anyone working 50-60 hours a week at Amazon with crap health insurance and days off will never be able to learn/move up in world (its possible yes I know). And they cant leave because they need to pay for food and shelter. Its slavery.

 

[Enkore]

Capitalist market ideology is responsible for almost all the wealth we have today. Thanks to capitalism we are well on the way to conquering poverty. It'll take another century or so to get there.



No. We need a more capitalist society. Ask anyone over the age of 50 who grew up in Eastern Europe if they think more socialism is a good idea.

Thats like assuming Democracy is bad by looking at Democratic republic of Korea.

 

[Enkore]

Y

Well it sounds like we're going round in circles. You say money will remain, but things will be valued differently. Who decides how stuff gets valued? Maybe you're right and in future everyone (or the majority at least) will simply see the error of their ways, and attribute more value to things that you think are valuable. Like I mentioned, the only other option is a gun to the head.

You dont decide, you just make it so companies have to pay more and provide more benefits.

Resulting in less pure profits and more in reinvestment into people to compete within market

 

[Enkore]

Democracy isn't perfect either, it's why the USA is a Constitutional Republic where the people have INALIENABLE RIGHTS endowed on them by GOD, neither the government or Democratic decisions (tyranny of the masses) CAN TAKE THOSE INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS AWAY. (Although the Democrats are doing a good job trying).

This is a good video explaining things:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6bWeRuE2jg

Didn't trump basically break whole U.S system where no one is supposed to be above law? On multiple counts.

I mean in UK cummings have been doing it for a while but no one being above law is not a founding principal of UK. Don't get me wrong, democrats are pretty bad. I just find it it rather hillarious that you think republicans or trump is any better.

We'll see how election goes, I think people forget that USA is not a democracy. If election goes sideways, people will be reminded that greatest democracy on earth is well... not a democracy.

 

[Enkore]

The well being of all people isn't best served by distributing resources evenly, society is best served by incentivising innovation and risk and rewarding people who are the most economically productive. You think Jeff Bezos having so much money is ridiculous I bet. Amazon employs directly 800,000 people, so that's a city of people who are housed and fed by Amazon directly.

The Amazon salary is so low that most of the time the employees are on supplemental government programs because its below living wage. Taxpayers are paying for Bezos workers basically. Which is rewarded in this capitalist system. The more you can get away the better. I'm sure Bezos can line pockets of couple politicians in government to OK the project through. Its cheaper anyway. The ultimate end goal, you'll have few monopolies charging crap ton per product/service and paying their workers as little as possible.

Then they'll suck so much money from bottom/middle that no one will eve afford their products.

I find it hilarious that I am labelled a socialist or that I want to dismantle the system. I am literally proposing to do what Henry Ford did at the turn of the century when he drastically increased salary for his workers, cut working week and made job conditions better. Who in turn became his customers. He also offered an optional reward program if you lived a 'good life' aka non drinking. I mean holy mother of God, is this really communism?

 

[Enkore]

Which salary is that? There's a lot you see. Is £38k below the living wage for an Area Manager, or £60k for a Software Engineer? Maybe £21k isn't enough to live on for a Warehouse Operative?

https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salary/Amazon-Salaries-E6036.htm

https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-employees-on-food-stamps-2018-8 I guess situation is not as bad in 'socialist Britain' as it is in 'free capitalist USA'. I wonder why.

But even here

https://www.theverge.com/interface/...on-delivery-delays-coronavirus-worker-strikes

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...rs-to-press-amazon-over-uk-working-conditions

 

[Enkore]

How many hours a week were the people on food stamps working? 40 hours or 20? It's pretty relevant information that isn't contained. They earn $15 an hour, plus can earn more with overtime. Now $15 is £11.48 an hour, on a 40 hour week that's £23,878 a year. Outside of a big city that's actually a decent wage, yet you're acting like they're being forced to work in Egypt in 2000 BC building the Pyramids while being whipped. It's laughable honestly.

I’m more familair with USA since I moved a while ago.

Warehouse worker wage in amazon is $15 per hour. Full time 40hr will make $24 000 a year (slightly above) gross. In America where you have to pay deductibles for health care and $5000 buys you a 15 year old corolla with 150k miles - and you need car to survive. Its really not that much.

As a reference please see this

https://www.huduser.gov/portal/datasets/il/il15/FY2015_IL_il.pdf

This amazon job will qualify as ‘low income’ and will give you a section8 voucher aka coupon to pay for your rent. This is also older so now numbers are even higher. IL is pretty cheap state, even Chicago is cheap for metro.

I’m not going into deals if family with two working parents works this job and how that will go with 1-2 children. Given that childcare at best will take out $1000 per child a month. In Chicago it goes for $2400. NYC is some obsene amount.

This is before we go into college territory for your children. There are options including being great at sports and hoping some college will give you a rider. But reality is that your options will be very limited if your parents are not welthy and dont have good credit score/income. The loan is put in your parents name, not yours. Well some is in your name but its minor.

Please also factor in that this Amazon job is ‘elite’ because its 50% above minimum wage of $10 and actually offers health insurance. Though with high deductible

 

[Enkore]

Well if someone is incapable of much else beyond $15/hr they shouldn’t complain.

You need certain skills for $15. Minimum wage is $10. For $20 an hour you’ll need bachelor which will come with rather large student debt.

 

[Enkore]

Correct. And the excuse is what?

1)
That even at $20 which requires bachelor degree - its still so small that you’ll struggle to raise a family with two working parents.

2) Per above reference of IL HUD - At $20 you’d still be considered ‘low income’ Therefore qualify for government rent subsidy cause you will struggle to afford it.

America is expensive, food, cars, health, property taxes, kids education, child-care etc money disappears fast

 

[Enkore]

A person’s will and determination will decide if they make $15/$20/$200 per hour

Jesus, what a lala land you live in. Maybe you should visit south/west chicago or other metro area with generational income and crime issues. Crap schools and drugs, look those kids in eye and tell them that. Its just up to them and thats all that matters.

 

[Enkore]

I used to live near Chicago.
I’m not responsible for a child’s poor upbringing where they’re in south side Chicago or a trailer park outside Detroit.
Don’t give me that “at risk children” bs.
Drugs and violence are a way of life for some people.
I have no sympathy for irresponsible people

So you dont think its slightly issue of system that these kids are stuck with crap schools, teachers, role models. That give them no life skills and then you have companies like amazon using billions in marketing to influence them.

Its easy to be non influenced if you grew up in good environment with good eduction which allows for critical thinking.

Great to call everyone dumb and lacking in motivation when capacity for both of those were gifted to you at young age. Meanwhile less fortunate did not.

Motivation, critical thinking, is not given at birth. Its developed.

 

[Enkore]

Your thinking on the bases of motivation and critical thinking is too bland / does not correspond with the known facts of nature. Intelligence (a precondition for higher-level) critical thinking is, in the main, inherited.

It is possible to raise some forms of intelligence by training, education or enrichment, but not enough to double it (to the lower high-end).

So hitler eugenics? Got it. People are either born smart or dumb. Nothing else much matters. Ghetto is going to ghetto cause their ‘slave genes’ are dumbos.

Sorry I see no point longer discussing this. I think this is an absolute disgusting viewpoint.

I just find it ridiculous that you say its all about how motivated you are and world is in your hands. Then go on saying that you are born with these parameters and yet seem to complain about the ‘ghetto’ being ghetto and stupid and un motivated. Though later you say your born with it and therefore cant control it.

 

[Enkore]

I don't think that is quite what he said, not that I agree with him. He is just stating that he believes as a whole Intelligence is inherited, I personally don't think its that black and white.

I think RxR is completely missing your argument too so there is 100% some miscommunication here lol.

nope, look above at his response. Dude is full on Nazi.

 

[Enkore]

Would you elaborate more on your ideas of inherited intelligence? If possible relate it to the OP's points about how companies utilise human capital(potential) etc.

I don't want to go off topic, as it seems we have a bit.

Its very simple. He believes that basically majority of people who are not wealthy/successful are dumb and lacking in motivation.

Furthermore he believes that you are born with both and cant be taught. Therefore there is zero point wasting resources on ‘small minds’ as they will forever be useless. Therefore justifying bad schools in ghettos and lack of any investment. Because in his mind all those people are essentially genetic trash.

The reality is that even if he is right which I do not think he is. Its just an absolute disgusting view of world that I do not agree with.