Is this justice?

MasterMike · 16 Oct 2006 at 22:51

cymatty said:
The problem is in twelve years he will only be 27 nowhere near life really is it?
He is young I agree however so was the other boy who life was lost at such a young age, why should this guy only get 12 years 30 years would be much fairer.

Like I said, there you're ignoring responsibility for actions. He did admit his guilt at triail: it's a hotly debated subject, obviously there is no particular age at which a person becomes repsonsible for what they do, nor a particular level of education, but reading the background of this story does make me think that he wasn't quite right in the head, nor has he had a particularly good time of things at school (to put it lightly): so should we therefore punish him the same way we would punish a 30 year old who premeditated his crime?

cymatty · 16 Oct 2006 at 22:56

MasterMike said:
so should we therefore punish him the same way we would punish a 30 year old who premeditated his crime?

Probably not, my argument is that he could be out in 12 years which is to little even for a 30 year old who commited the crime. My problem is that sentances for murder should be much longer epsecially for brutal pre meditated acts like this, a proper sentance would be 25-50 (minimum) years depenfding upon severity.

Vonhelmet · 16 Oct 2006 at 22:59

cymatty said:
The problem is in twelve years he will only be 27 nowhere near life really is it?

On the other hand, you could look at it and say that 12 years is a much longer time to a 15 year old than it is to a 45 year old.

MasterMike · 16 Oct 2006 at 23:00

cymatty said:
Probably not, my argument is that he could be out in 12 years which is to little even for a 30 year old who commited the crime. My problem is that sentances for murder should be much longer epsecially for brutal pre meditated acts like this, a proper sentance would be 25-50 (minimum) years depenfding upon severity.

There you've shown your ignorance of this particular case; it wasn't premeditated. The evidence points to the murder itself being a moment of rage which is an entirely different thing.

12 years ago I was at the end of primary school. The last 12 years have completely defined me as a person; someone who knew me in primary school would almost definitely not recognise me now. I would certainly not call 12 years a "joke" as it substantially disadvantages anyone of getting where they would like to be.

He could be out in 12 years, yes, althought it is doubtful. Remember, as mentioned previously, 12 years is the mandatory minimum for this crime: people saying he will be out in 6 for "good behaviour" are speaking rubbish which does not apply to this sort of crime.

cymatty · 16 Oct 2006 at 23:04

MasterMike said:
There you've shown your ignorance of this particular case; it wasn't premeditated. The evidence points to the murder itself being a moment of rage which is an entirely different thing.

bbc said:
Mr Webster said Hamer had written Joe a letter - purportedly from the deputy head at his school - to lure him to his house

Sounds planned to me.

MasterMike said:
I would certainly not call 12 years a "joke"

It is when if he leaves after 12 years he still has (if he lives to an average age) around 50 years of his life left.

Tru · 16 Oct 2006 at 23:07

cymatty said:
Sounds planned to me.

But not to the judge:

[Mr Justice McCombe] also said the killing itself was not thought of in advance but triggered by Joe's rejection of the defendant's sexual advance.

jezsoup · 16 Oct 2006 at 23:09

Yes this is justice, lets hope they manage to do something constructive with him for 12 years and sort out what went wrong with him.

MasterMike · 16 Oct 2006 at 23:12

cymatty said:
Sounds planned to me.

Getting the younger boy to his house was predecided, yes. The murder was not. You have to be very clear in these distinctions.

I was going to type something more strongly worded about my views on prison punishment but after years of real-life experience I know it'll be banging my head against a diamond wall. That's all I have to say in this thread.

Geoff · 16 Oct 2006 at 23:15

vonhelmet said:
On the other hand, you could look at it and say that 12 years is a much longer time to a 15 year old than it is to a 45 year old.

Or the other way round. After all, 12 years is a much grreater proportion of the expected remaining lifespan of a 45-year old. But I'm not sure that either perspective is terribly germane to the case.

cymatty · 16 Oct 2006 at 23:15

MasterMike said:
I was going to type something more strongly worded about my views on prison punishment but after years of real-life experience I know it'll be banging my head against a diamond wall. That's all I have to say in this thread.

Have you been to prison if you don't mind me asking? Is that what you are getting at?

Also is there any particular reason that the UK seem to give out shorter life terms than say the US where life means life?

Geoff · 16 Oct 2006 at 23:15

cymatty said:
Have you been to prison if you don't mind me asking? Is that what you are getting at?

Or worked in one?

MasterMike · 16 Oct 2006 at 23:19

cymatty said:
Have you been to prison if you don't mind me asking? Is that what you are getting at?

Also is there any particular reason that the UK seem to give out shorter life terms than say the US where life means life?

I really shouldn't be doing this, I've promised myself before not to.

No, I've not been to prison. I have however had someone I was fairly close to murdered. This was 9 years ago. I've only ever brought it up once briefly on this forum before. I was happy with the sentence imposed (life) and don't see why some other people weren't.

Inquisitor · 16 Oct 2006 at 23:19

robmiller said:
I really don't think people actually consider how long 12 years is.

What were you doing 12 years ago? What have you done since? Can you imagine not having done any of that, having spent it in a cell deprived of your most basic freedoms?

Hear, hear. People are too quick to dismiss any sentence that doesn't last the majority, if not all of the convict's life as "short" without actually considering its effects on him or her.

cymatty · 16 Oct 2006 at 23:20

MasterMike said:
No, I've not been to prison. I have however had someone I was fairly close to murdered. This was 9 years ago. I've only ever brought it up once briefly on this forum before. I was happy with the sentence imposed (life) and don't see why some other people weren't.

Sorry to hear that.

If you don't mind me asking was life, life so to speak or just a number of years.

Geoff · 16 Oct 2006 at 23:24

MasterMike said:
I really shouldn't be doing this, I've promised myself before not to.

No, I've not been to prison. I have however had someone I was fairly close to murdered. This was 9 years ago. I've only ever brought it up once briefly on this forum before. I was happy with the sentence imposed (life) and don't see why some other people weren't.

I wouldn't want to comment on whether any sentence is appropriate or not without knowing at least something about the specific case, simply because circumstances vary so greatly. It's even rather dodgy basing an opinion on newspaper reports and a TV news item or two, but it's generally all most of us have to work with.

Oh, and I'm not angling for detail of the case you mentioned. Privacy is best respected. The comment was generic.

MasterMike · 16 Oct 2006 at 23:29

I won't say anything about what happened, the sentence was 12 years life and me and my immediate family were happy with that. Some of my family were brandishing the "this is a joke" stick, and I don't speak to many of them any more; I consider many of them idiots.

cymatty · 16 Oct 2006 at 23:33

MasterMike said:
I won't say anything about what happened, the sentence was 12 years life and me and my immediate family were happy with that. Some of my family were brandishing the "this is a joke" stick, and I don't speak to many of them any more; I consider many of them idiots.

Fair enough.

Back onto this case, it will be interesting to see if he gets let out after 12 years, judging by the news report he may be too mentally unstable to be allowed back onto the streets.

Von Smallhausen · 17 Oct 2006 at 00:21

RaohNS said:
The way things are going he'll be out in half that despite the "minimum" 12years.. i dare to say he'll be out in 5-6years

>| Raoh |<

BBC said:
Hamer then went and took two knives from the kitchen and stabbed Joe 16 times, puncturing his windpipe in two places and cutting a major artery.

Mr Webster told the court Joe was the victim of a "sustained and savage attack".

Although there was no evidence to indicate a sexual assault the evidence did not exclude one, he said.

After the attack, Hamer dragged Joe's body downstairs, put it in a wheelie bin and took the bin to Whitehead Park, where he hid it.

I would disagree, his age is immaterial to the fact that he is an inherent danger to the public. 5-6 years is not plausible for his release for such a savage murder.

I would say he will serve the 12 at the very least.