Isotonic, Electrolytes, Salt tabs and Me

[NoNameNoNumber]

Same thing?
I raced Vietnam 70.3 last weekend, all they supplied was Revive Isotonic on the bike and run. I took 750ml of strong High 5 2:1 with me and I went well. Didn't need to smash loads of gels and didn't eat at all.
Usually when I ride I'll take a bottle of 2 High 5 Zero electrolyte tabs and a bottle of 4:1 which again seems to work but I do get some cramping reasonably often on longer rides.
So last week has got me thinking that maybe I'm better off with just using Zero and supplement with gels if needs be/longer days out.

This has got me reading into it a little bit and just confusing myself further!
Do they actually help stave off cramp or not? If so what are the key ingredients I need to look out for?

Sorry for the vague post, I'd like to get to the bottom of this cramping issue though, it's plagued me for years even before the triathlon stuff.
I've tried drinking loads, 1.5L over 30 miles then refill. The other week I did 100 miles on 1.5L and a coffee with no cramping... No rhyme or reason!

Cheers guys

 

[One More Solo]

This is well worth a listen: https://www.spreaker.com/user/9430086/coaches-convo-episode-1-cramps-compressi

 

[BennyC]

To my knowledge the exact cause of cramp isn't known and can result from several factors. Again, there's no proven link to salt loss but many find adequate salts & staying hydrated to help massively. Muscular fatigue can also be attributable.

Personally for me, eradicating cramping from my riding just requires staying hydrated. I don't need a huge amount of salts or sodium in my bottles and I've never ridden with anything other than water & electrolyte tabs. The body does self regulate so if you get moderate amounts from your diet there shouldn't be a need to supplement massively.

The best approach is to stay cool for me and mitigate sweating unnecessarily all together. In almost all instances I cramped as a result of keeping knee & arm warmers on too long and being unaware of my perspiration rate because of them.

Fluid intake will vary and you can't arbitrarily correlate it to distance, without factoring in profile/elevation, effort and temperature. In Spain when it was 25 degrees I was seeing in a good 6-8 litres of fluid on fairly sedate rides. In the winter in the UK at 5 degrees a punch 70 miler wouldn't see me drinking much more than a litre.

Search the forum as there have been debates/arguments about this before

 

[DanF]

I quite often get cramp issues. There's a few things that set it off.

- sporadic training, ie being off the bike for 2+ weeks then doing a long or hard ride
- ramping up training volume or effort too quickly
- almost always get post ride cramp in inner thigh abductors after a really hard or long ride (waking up at 2am with major leg cramp is so not fun anymore)

It's always the same muscles that cramp as well. I have pretty poor feet with arch being a bit collapsed and ankles rolling over so there's a smaller calf muscle on the inner side that always get's over worked compared to the others. Same with the inner thigh muscle, it's a stabilizing muscle on the bike and just seems to get a bit over worked with my current setup. What I've worked out is it's almost always stabilizing muscles that cramp with me so I think I just need to work on strengthening them up with targeted exercises.

Hydration seems pretty important but I can finish rides being fairly dehydrated with no impact on cramp issues. Just use electrolyte tabs as a way to replace salt depending on how much I think I'll sweat. In the UK that's mainly just 1 tab per ride unless very hot. In Spain it was 2 tabs per ride.

I'd recommend looking out for patterns with your cramp and then try to manage it. Race day events will usually put more demand on your body than training days, maybe ramp up some super hard efforts a few weeks before race days?

 

[#Chri5#]

Interesting to hear about your inner calf cramp Dan. After my big ride a couple of weeks ago, I cramped (very painfully) on the inside of my left calf once I was home and off the bike. My foot arches are also collapsed and I have a shim under the footbed in my right shoe which helps with getting numb toes (the shim was put there by the bike fitter I used a couple of years ago).

I also cramped badly towards the end of the TdY Sportive on the first May bank holiday weekend. In the last few miles I had to swing off the road to lean on a lamp-post as the cramp was terrible and the leg movement to un-clip was way too painful (MTFU I know!). I think dehydration was an issue that day with it being so hot (pushing 30 degrees). From memory I think I drunk 3 x 750ml of H5 Zero (two tabs per bottle), plus another 2 x 750 of water or the drags of the H5 Zero refilled. It was also the longest / biggest ride of the year so far (128km / 2250m climbing) and a big jump over what I'd been doing on the turbo or handful of actual road rides.

Still, nothing as bad as France last year where the average temp on one ride was 39!

https://www.strava.com/activities/1038054039/analysis

 

[BennyC]

To reiterate, preventing salt loss & perspiration is better than band-aiding it with endless salt tablets As is properly warming up & down.

Of course it's unavoidable sometimes but dressing for the conditions, using arm & knee warmers rather than long sleeves & tights gives you some versatility (I use UV screens to keep windchill off when I don't actually need to be kept warm). Not wearing a cap so your head sufficiently cools Buying lightweight/summer kit. Loosening your helmet, spinning out & cooling off at the top of climbs rather than stopping dead etc.

 

[DanF]

Interesting to hear about your inner calf cramp Dan. After my big ride a couple of weeks ago, I cramped (very painfully) on the inside of my left calf once I was home and off the bike. My foot arches are also collapsed and I have a shim under the footbed in my right shoe which helps with getting numb toes (the shim was put there by the bike fitter I used a couple of years ago).

I also cramped badly towards the end of the TdY Sportive on the first May bank holiday weekend. In the last few miles I had to swing off the road to lean on a lamp-post as the cramp was terrible and the leg movement to un-clip was way too painful (MTFU I know!). I think dehydration was an issue that day with it being so hot (pushing 30 degrees). From memory I think I drunk 3 x 750ml of H5 Zero (two tabs per bottle), plus another 2 x 750 of water or the drags of the H5 Zero refilled. It was also the longest / biggest ride of the year so far (128km / 2250m climbing) and a big jump over what I'd been doing on the turbo or handful of actual road rides.

Still, nothing as bad as France last year where the average temp on one ride was 39!

https://www.strava.com/activities/1038054039/analysis

I've tried a few different insoles to help with foot setup. What I've found is they are all a waste of money apart from these ones.

https://www.sigmasports.com/item/G8-Performance/2620-Shoe-Insoles/8LDZ

They allow you to move the arch support around front-back, side to side and up-down. You can start of with them low and slowly build up the height until your arch is supporting itself properly. It's not a hard fixed arch support, it's a bit supple so more a suggestive arch support so your body get's used to holding up the arch on it's own.

The Sidas custom molded ones where the biggest con I thought. They try to hold your foot in a specific way while hot molding the insole. It's just not possible to get the arch support properly setup doing it like this as your foot just isn't in the correct position.

 

[Edinho]

I remember a few months ago there was a highly rated nutritionist, I think on radio 4 it was, saying that salt in the diet is no required. She was saying that land locked cultures like in the rainforest survived on nil salt for generations. This is in a hot humid climate.

I think there is a lot of stuff out there pedalled by people and organisations out there to make money - supplements, so called energy boosters - gels, drinks, recovery. It's all nonsense.

Train properly, rest properly, eat properly. You don't need all that ****.

In my experience cramp has come down to one dominant factor - lack of fitness and training for the conditions. Anything else is excuses and hocus pocus voodoo remedies.

And something that I've changed in the last few years is the amount I drink to rehydrate - I've actually reduced it and feel a lot better for it anything under 40 miles or 3 hours I don't hydrate during the ride.

And eat proper food on longer rides - a jam/cheese sandwich & banana beats any hoodoo miracle gel.

 

[Berger]

I agree with the above apart from not drinking while riding, that’s just daft. A small amount of dehydration has a huge impact on performance and there are many studies to back that up.

Solid proper foods on the bike. I have jam or Nutella sandwich and a banana, one bottle energy and one normal.

Cramps I found high5 zero can very slightly help, tbh just prefer slight flavour over plain water, I would cramp if not fit enough for the effort I’ve been doing/over and above what I am used to.

 

[BennyC]

I agree with the above apart from not drinking while riding, that’s just daft. A small amount of dehydration has a huge impact on performance and there are many studies to back that up.

Yep, it doesn't take much at all for notable negative performance implications to occur.

losing as little as 2% of your body weight in fluids – for example, 2.8 pounds (representing about 44 ounces of water) in a 140-pound marathoner – can cause measurable decreases in performance. Dehydration of more than 3% of your body weight is serious, increasing the possibility of heat exhaustion and heat stroke in warm and/or humid conditions. Since athletes can sweat out 6% to 10% of their body weight during competition, you can see the importance of rehydrating.

And thirst is not a reliable indicator of dehydration. If you wait to drink until you are thirsty and stop drinking when your thirst is satisfied, you’ll remain 25% to 50% dehydrated.

 

[NoNameNoNumber]

This is well worth a listen: https://www.spreaker.com/user/9430086/coaches-convo-episode-1-cramps-compressi

Thanks, stuck with it but found all of the tangents they ran off on very distracting and irrelevant. Some interesting points though RE cleat position and calf cramp, despite not being an area I really suffer with.

To reiterate, preventing salt loss & perspiration is better than band-aiding it with endless salt tablets As is properly warming up & down.

Of course it's unavoidable sometimes but dressing for the conditions, using arm & knee warmers rather than long sleeves & tights gives you some versatility (I use UV screens to keep windchill off when I don't actually need to be kept warm). Not wearing a cap so your head sufficiently cools Buying lightweight/summer kit. Loosening your helmet, spinning out & cooling off at the top of climbs rather than stopping dead etc.

I never seem to struggle in the heat. Many many laps of Lanzarote and not once cramped. 70.3 in Vietnam and not one cramp... slow 70 miler round here and I can be in bits. Assuming it is the sartorius discussed above, if I get that mid ride I have no option but to get off the bike and cry roadsidee!
No idea how to stretch it out.
Although yes I agree, getting cold out on the road can be troublesome.

 

[One More Solo]

Thanks, stuck with it but found all of the tangents they ran off on very distracting and irrelevant. Some interesting points though RE cleat position and calf cramp, despite not being an area I really suffer with.

Yeah, I've given them similar feedback in the past as there's lot of good stuff but sometimes it takes too much attention to draw it all out. It's well worth keeping a brief diary or notes and working out if there are common circumstances around the occasions you cramp though.

 

[Roady]

I've tried a few different insoles to help with foot setup. What I've found is they are all a waste of money apart from these ones.

https://www.sigmasports.com/item/G8-Performance/2620-Shoe-Insoles/8LDZ

I'm using the Specialized BG Blue insoles, recommended by a fitter and although I did try cheaper ones within a few months the arch support had flattened out and wasn't supporting any more. Haven't had the same issue with the BG's and one of my sets must be 3 years old. Without them my arches where collapsing horribly causing me loads of toe pain/aches. I do have a shim under my left toes in my best shoes, yet not in my day to day. Don't notice much difference with/without it. Have had no issues since having them, the collapsed arches where even causing me to rock in the saddle more and giving me saddle pains no matter the height adjustments I made to saddle.

A bike fit from a good fitter is key, especially one that looks at your pedalling, shoes and technique. Not just bike. My local shop do BG/RETUL with 3 guys trained there, one of them also runs his own private fitting using more of the same systems but also offers the Trek 'Dartfish' system (I think that's what it's called?). A fit in the shop takes around an hour, his personal fits are closer to 3.

In my experience cramp has come down to one dominant factor - lack of fitness and training for the conditions. Anything else is excuses and hocus pocus voodoo remedies.

Hydration and electrolytes are a very personal thing. I have to have them. I regularly ride similar club rides most saturday mornings of the year, if I don't have a high5/powerbar electrolyte tab and drink plain water I'll cramp around 2 hours in. It's not even a hard ride for me and I don't cramp any other times when riding with tabbed drinks. I drink around 500ml in the winter and 800-1000ml in the summer over a 35/40 mile 2-3 hour ride. I don't even cramp doing 6+ hour rides with tabbed drinks.

Totally agree about real foods though, I've had far more 'success' with longer distance endurance eating more natural things like dried fruits & grains, than I have over the typical 'energy' bar and gels. I carry a gel or two for 'emergency' and 'get me home' situations but don't use them as part of a planned fuelling strategy on long rides. Many of them don't agree with my digestion and I'll have stomach cramps/explosive toilet visits afterwards, along with 'unsettled' feelings for a day or two afterwards. I will eat things like haribo/jellybabies for a sugar boost when needed.

Real foods I've not had digestion problems with: My go to easy 'grab a couple of' bar is the natural NAKD bars, one of the cheapest and 100% natural grains/fruits. I will try and make my own oat flapjacks but they don't last very long (as they're too nice)... Clif bars are great, but expensive. I'll only generally buy them for a couple of long rides per year. I generally eat porridge/museli before any morning ride, that and a banana will see me do 2-3 hours club pace easily.

 

[DanF]

some more stuff on nutrition, question on cramps on it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiaTxSxmmns