IT industry has changed....

Moley

Moley

Moley

Soldato
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29 Aug 2006
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In a world of my own
So last week I lost my job as a Senior Engineer (3rd line) for a IT services company up in London. The Operations Manager (my line manager) decided after a few of my projects didn't go perfectly, that he didn't have confidence in my abilities enough to give me more projects to do and fired me.

Now whilst I admit that some didn't go perfectly, I did manage them through to customer satisfaction and the customers in question are now ongoing and paying monthly fees for support.

I've been in the IT industry for 20 years now, started back on 3Mhz IBM PCs, using DOS and GEM, have seen Novell Netware and Windows LAN Manager born, installed, used and supported every iteration of Windows from 1.0 through to Vista and been self taught along the way - hands on rather than book reading.

Nowadays I am able to install, configure and support Windows Server up to 2003 (just started learning 2k8), most desktop environments and apps, Cisco and Juniper switches/routers and firewalls.

Basically I am a jack of all trades and can turn my hand to pretty much anything in IT.

There is a copy of my CV here: http://www.tjqka.org/blog/?page_id=5 which I am in the process of updating.

Now obviously I was kinda upset at being dismissed, but I've gotten over it and as I've been prudent with my money for the last year I'm fine for a while whilst I get another job.

Now here is the thing, I don't have an MCSE. Never have had - was doing the job long before MCSEs were thought of and was always a member of the school of thought that disliked the idea of people reading a few books and gettting a bit of paper that got them into my chosen line of work at the same level of pay as my - but with sod all experience.

Now I've come to the conclusion that to move my career forward before I hit 40 I'm going to have to bite the bullet and get an MCSE and do my CCNA certification (have done the 4 semester course). So I tried a mock version of the 70-290 exam this morning and failed miserably.

It would seem that MCSE is a lot more sophisticated than it was years ago and I may really be shooting myself in the foot by not having it.

So, I have the training kit and I'm just installing virtual server at the moment so I can start running through the lesson installs etc. Wish me luck!

Does this echo anyone elses experience?
 
Sounds like a tricky place you're in, and I wish you luck if you feel that's the right route to take.

Like yourself, I'm mostly self-taught and had to learn things the hard way. I'm not an expert in any particular field. I'm currently trying to get more 'real world' experience, so I'm not limited to technical roles.

I do feel there are a lot of incompetents in the system who abuse the term 'IT Professional', just because they've attended a couple of courses.
 
Yes Ive had very much the same experience as yourself. Ive not working in IT anywhere near as long as you, but was dismissed from a position for very similar reasons. Like you I was and I guess still am all self taught knowledge. Like you when I was dismissed I then decided to do the MSCE in windows 2K and the CCNA. Personally I still didnt find they helped me any bit other than they got me into a few interviews. Mostly for companies I wouldnt havent wanted to work for. The company I ended up working for employed me on the basis of my experience. They didnt care about the little bits of paper as like you say anyone can sit and learn a MCSE, but it isnt really any help unless you have knowledge and experience of managing windows based networks first hand
 
Hands on time will always beat sat at a desk learning time. The amount of interviews ive had where me, nothing but NVQ3, have got the job when there have been MCSE and DEGREE peopl eint he same interview has made me see the world as it is. While the bits of paper are ok, its better if you have real time doing it.

You will get another job, all that stops people getting one within a week is the rate of pay, the more you want, the more time you wait.

As a contractor, i find losing a job is no big deal anymore, done about 15-20 contracts over 11 years, so its 2nd nature to me now but i dont have large bills to pay.

Keep ya chin up, get the CV done and go get a better job :)

<ColiN>
 
Hands on is always better than just on paper.

But it looks like you will follow suit with Ireland where to poke a mouse you need a Degree.

I done my cert full time then worked and completed my Degree and Masters at night. Also done all the MCSE's, CCNA, CCDA, A+, Net+, Svr+, Sec+ and no looking at the CCSP and an IT audit qual.

But i found that most people interviewing you dont have a bog about it, even with my quals on one interview awhile back i was told i need to go back and do the ECDL as it would be better for me, **** the Degree etc you need ecdl??????????

Bloody HR tool did not know anything about IT, and should not have been interviewing IT people for a High spec IT job.
 
smelf1 said:
even with my quals on one interview awhile back i was told i need to go back and do the ECDL as it would be better for me, **** the Degree etc you need ecdl??????????

Bloody HR tool did not know anything about IT, and should not have been interviewing IT people for a High spec IT job.
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I would have walked out - shouted a bit first and then walked out.

I mean it shows a serious lack of respect for candidates if someone that stupid is interviewing them....
 
ha ha i did i got really fed up, i kept trying to explain the Degree is a lot higher inc the industry qualifications but she kept telling me it would stand to me to do the ECDL and help me get jobs.
 
Never mind 70-290 it's 70-291 you need to worry about. Then there is the CCNA exam (or exams) :eek:

I should think somebody of your experience should be able to find a job without having to have an MCSE.
 
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I have a similar background to you by the sounds of it. 20 years in the business, no formal qualifications.

I have always maintained that MCSE was just a piece of paper and no proof of ability to do the job. You can't replace 20 years of hands on working within IT, with a couple of months cramming and an exam or two.

I am also a jack of all trades, as for the last 10 years I have been doing Systems Integration / Administration for a medium sized company. This means I get to do everything from recommending/evaluating software and hardware to installing/configuring it and offering 2nd/3rd level support. I do systems admin for most of the systems (Windows 2000/2003 AD, Exchange 2003, HPUX, RedHat, VMWare ESX). I also help manage the Checkpoint Firewall (NGX on Nokia boxes), Ironports (Email appliances for Anti Spam/Virus) and Whale e-Gap (Portal appliance).

With all that on my CV, I still get snotty little recruitment dweebs telling me it would look better on my CV if I did an MCSE. I try to explain to them that my experience is the only qualification that is relevant, but I am not sure they buy it. I don't know, maybe I am wrong, but it is very sad for the industry if that is the case.
 
JudgeC said:
With all that on my CV, I still get snotty little recruitment dweebs telling me it would look better on my CV if I did an MCSE. I try to explain to them that my experience is the only qualification that is relevant, but I am not sure they buy it. I don't know, maybe I am wrong, but it is very sad for the industry if that is the case.
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The problem isnt neccessarily that the industry sees it this way, they dont in 90% of cases, only in those like the above where it's not an IT person doing the recruiting

the problem comes with almost all recruitment being done through agencies, and it comes down to the person working at the agency whether you get put forward or not, and if they think you should have an mcse for the role then they might not put you forward
i've been actively looking for dev roles for the past few weeks and have come across some stupendously incompetent recruitment people, but there are a few good ones out there who both know what they're talking about and take an interest in getting you a job
 
When you said you'd been sacked, I didn't at the time realise you were a contractor. I'm guessing thats the risk you take when going down that route.

Whilst I fully agree that experience is key, having the qualifications really does get you through the door. My advice would be to spend the next few months living and breathing Microsoft books and software, and try and get all or at least part of your MCSE, IMO these qualifications are a little more valuable these days, as the vendors have made them a lot tougher.

Good luck in the search for a new contract!!
 
Sorry you say you are a 3rd Level Engineer, so why are you delivering Projects? That's the PM's job to deliver them, now if your the Projects resource the PM should have been managing the issues that arose and it should not have fallen just on your shoulders. After all that's what the PM gets paid for.
 
To be honest the experience isn't enough, you need some qualification to stand out. If I have a pile of 40 CVs for a job, I can't get everyone in to interview them (even if they have 20 years experience - which I'm put off by a little - 20 years in the industry and you've not moved into management doesn't speak well for ambition) so qualifications help filter it down.

For all that people bad mouth it, the MCSE (particularly the messaging speciality) isn't a piece of cake that you can pass with your eyes closed (that honour goes to the CCNA easily).

Best of luck finding something of course!
 
steviec said:
Sorry you say you are a 3rd Level Engineer, so why are you delivering Projects? That's the PM's job to deliver them, now if your the Projects resource the PM should have been managing the issues that arose and it should not have fallen just on your shoulders. After all that's what the PM gets paid for.
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Depends on organisation size, I'm an infrastrucutre architect and in theory my job is design and some implementation but working for a medium sized ISP means I end up managing most of my own projects (which is by far the hardest thing I've ever done, I may be technically brilliant but I'm not cut out to be a project manager)
 
Hmm as a contractor you'd be seen as hire-n-fire resource.

A mate who is a contractor has been fired before due to getting on too well with a girl that his permanent manager was also keen on.. can't prove anything but he's still contracting and is in work. He doesn't want to be a manager, he's very happy getting paid enough and still being his own boss..
 
Hyper said:
I am studying CCNA at college at the moment, it can be very hard at times.
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It's very basic by industry standards though, I interview shedloads of people who have a CCNA but aren't at what I'd call CCNA standard at all. The jump from CCNA to CCNP is pretty big and even the CCNP is starting to get devalued now (I prefer CCIP as a qualification, it's tougher and demonstrates a wider skill set)
 
You need paper qualifications to get the morons in recruitment agencies to put you forward for jobs.

You need experience and skill at the job to persuade a potential employer to to give you a contract after interview.

Reading between the lines of your original post, and I may be wrong, but how do technical qualifications help you run projects?

Personally I'm sick of the whole stupid industry, especially agencies, which is why after 22 years I've walked away from it.
 
smelf1 said:
Hands on is always better than just on paper.

But it looks like you will follow suit with Ireland where to poke a mouse you need a Degree.

I done my cert full time then worked and completed my Degree and Masters at night. Also done all the MCSE's, CCNA, CCDA, A+, Net+, Svr+, Sec+ and no looking at the CCSP and an IT audit qual.

But i found that most people interviewing you dont have a bog about it, even with my quals on one interview awhile back i was told i need to go back and do the ECDL as it would be better for me, **** the Degree etc you need ecdl??????????

Bloody HR tool did not know anything about IT, and should not have been interviewing IT people for a High spec IT job.
Click to expand...

I have to agree here, I have had three job interviews before that got ruined by the HR lady not knowing anything about IT.

They always end up asking "situations" ( competency interviews )questions, and trying to explain to them is like talking to a brick wall.

I have no idea why HR people even bother turning upto interviews.
 
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