JIra or other Software PM tools?

Caporegime
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
32,623
I've recently been put in charge managing a software project.Until now we didn't really follow any paradigm and just worked hard and made sure progress was made and deadlines met. The CEO liked Gannt charts and critical path analysis to understand potential risks and consequences of delays on some tasks due to dependencies. He is willing to give things like Burndown charts a try, there re definitively some benefits for us. E.g., we can rarely work 100% on a given task so something might get worked on in fragments for 2-3weeks but only take 4-5 days total effort. Plus you get the usual issues of difficulty in a accurately estimating task effort, and requirements changes.


Ideally we are looking for:
  • An online system that all devs can log in to and add tasks, update completion etc.
  • When adding a task with an estimated duration, the estimate can be updated while keeping the original so we know the error.
  • Flexibility in assigning the theoretical/nominal work rate. E.g. in theory we are supposed to work 60% of our time on this project, but that can vary form 0-100%. Not least there are things like vacations, sickness and holidays that are nice to account for when estimate "project velocity".
  • Tools to help predict project completions/reaching milestones on time. I've seen some burn-down charts stop at the current data with the philosophy you can't predict the future, which just doesn't cut it when you have deadlines. I want to be able to see when our nominal work rate intersects he x-axis, e.g. no more tasks, but also would be nice to be able to model our true work rate. E.g., we supposedly work 60% of our time = 24 hours a week, but lets say the true average is only 19.5 hours a week, and furthermore, we consistently under estimate task effort by 20%. Then our 170 hours of estimated tasks is more like 204hours etc. This goes against the philosophy of some agile types but we aren't doing agile, we need more flexibility combined with actually providing results at deadlines. The deadlines are imaginary, they are critical to the existence of the company. E.g., CES only occurs once a year, we miss that and our company might not even exist for next year.
  • Related to the above, how can we model risk in task dependencies. Yes, we try and break things down and work on tasks in parallel but sometimes task A really has to precede task B, perhaps task B is entirely pointless if you can't succeed at task A.. Something graphical would be nice, e.g. make a little dependency tree that can some how integrate with the provides work estimates and task velocity.
  • Presenting velocity, work completed in the task week. The CEO and some investors need weekly updates on progress. The Burndown chart is one piece. But I also want a report about high-level tasks. E.g., we might have 5 main taks that we would sub-divide into 4-12 smaller pieces that the engineers need to know about to mange time and measure progress, but management shouldn't care. They want a summary of the 5 tasks. Something showing Hours worked on each task, % completion, predicted completion, current estimated effort, original estimated effort., responsible engineers, comments.
  • Things like bug tracking that can integrate with our git repo.
  • Easy to use, or lots of good resources for help
  • Ideally free or decent free trial so we can determine how much we like it.
  • No pretentious BS and stupid naming of common entities - a tasks is a task, a big is bug, and a story is what I read my 2 year old each night.
 
Soldato
Joined
20 Dec 2004
Posts
16,020
JIRA and Atlassian stack, while clunky and complex are pretty safe bets, particularly when it comes to integration.

We use JIRA and Hansoft at the moment, with a sync connector. Hansoft is cleaner and simpler than JIRA. Hansoft's online product Favro is pretty good, and you can run a free trial.
 
Associate
Joined
22 Jun 2006
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Location
Belfast
JIRA and Atlassian stack, while clunky and complex are pretty safe bets, particularly when it comes to integration.



clunky and complex being the key words here, have used it across multiple companies and hated it every time. But when you have no choice its fine.

I much prefer TFS but then that's more developer oriented that you would like I guess.
 
Soldato
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
18,296
Location
Brighton
Got no qualms with Jira apart from the scale of the licensing costs, I only administrate the infrastructure and use it for some issues so probably don't use all the possible features to find the issues out with it. Lots of integrations, lots of documentation.
 
Last edited:
Caporegime
OP
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
32,623
I looked at Trello but see no way to produce burndown charts, enter milestones, track bug, create workflow.

Hansoft looks interesting and would be free for us, at least initially.

JIRA and Atlassian stack, while clunky and complex are pretty safe bets, particularly when it comes to integration.

We use JIRA and Hansoft at the moment, with a sync connector. Hansoft is cleaner and simpler than JIRA. Hansoft's online product Favro is pretty good, and you can run a free trial.

Why do you use both Jira and Hansoft out of interest?
 
Soldato
Joined
20 Dec 2004
Posts
16,020
Why do you use both Jira and Hansoft out of interest?

Producers prefer the Hansoft UI for planning and macro tracking. Everyone else prefers JIRA.

I don't mind either really. Once you know JIRA and set up your dashboards in it's horrible interface it can be ok. Hansoft is a much nicer user experience.

The main Hansoft product is a windows client application/server.

Their Favro product is web-based and completely different. It's much nicer imo but I've not used it 'in anger' just on some little projects outside work.
 
Soldato
Joined
29 Jul 2004
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9,678
Location
Somerset
From your list it sounds like you need to understand Agile development before you start trying to use the tools to help track it. There is no point whatsoever doing it halves, you just end up with none of the advantages of Agile and all of the cons and you'll be back to old school gantt charts and clueless managers in no time.
 
Soldato
Joined
20 Dec 2004
Posts
16,020
I don't see Agile mentioned anywhere?

Burndown charts aren't anything special reserved for agile, they're perfectly useful for waterfall style management.
 
Soldato
Joined
22 Dec 2008
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10,370
Location
England
We use phabricator. It's pretty good.

I don't know whether it offers the level of tracking estimates / time spent / burn down stuff you're after. Modelling risk and generating progress reports sounds like a lot of overhead in order to assign blame.
 
Soldato
Joined
13 Jan 2003
Posts
23,816
Tools to help predict project completions/reaching milestones on time. I've seen some burn-down charts stop at the current data with the philosophy you can't predict the future, which just doesn't cut it when you have deadlines. I want to be able to see when our nominal work rate intersects he x-axis, e.g. no more tasks,

Fixed price & fixed scope I assume?

You can simply add those and track those as epics. Then manage any change in scope accordingly through change requests.

The issue here is that people have a plan.. then when the developer looks at it and shows the complexity and it doesn't go according to that toys get thrown out of the pram.

You can also use "Aha!" in top of Jira to manage a high level view and draw up note books for each area - giving each stake holder their snapshot of the world. It also supports Gantt..

The key is here is managing the inter-dependencies because when you have over 70 scrum teams, over 3000 people on the programme - that's the problem that scrum-of-scrums and any star form scaling has problems with.. (welcome to my world!).

Our local risk department tracks risks using Jira too. They like it because they can tie into the development.. but then manage their own work in step. The wider group legal and risk are a different beast.. but that Jira link got some interest from senior execs in risk too..

Unfortunately we are forced to use CA Clarity. It's an abomination as you should be able to generate the real time used by outputting from Jira rather than getting people to fill in timesheet. Reason for that is that everything gets bundled up into a enterprise cost of ownership system.. which therefore is based on what people think/mistakes etc rather than the actual work pulled from the teams tools..
 
Soldato
Joined
27 Mar 2003
Posts
2,710
have you given https://www.visualstudio.com/team-services a look?

We use it and it has been a big help for us. We used to use SourceSafe/TFS locally but moved to the cloud version a few years back and haven't looked back since. It has improved a great deal since we started back in 2013 and may satisfy a lot of your requirements.

Its free for up to 5 developers and then unlimited stakeholders (from memory)
 
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