Junior Doctors Strikes

Soldato
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How do you guys feels about the doctors going on strike?

For contexed this is what they are paid:

GradeYears post med schoolPay per hour
FY11£14.9
FY22£16.31
ST1/23,4£19.30
ST3/4/55,6,7£24.45
ST6+8+£28
ConsultantFrom year 8 to 10£42


Feels they generally pay them self:
GMC, Insurance, BMA, royal collage £2k
Courses or exams average £1k per year

Most have £80k + debt now

for the first 8 to 10 years you get moved around all over the uk and may move hospitals a couple of times a year

The stranded working week is 48h, less than that and you are part-time.
This is on a shift pattern, so you are doing 48h a week with a combination of nights, days, and twilights (often finishing at 2am)


They use the term junior doctor to devalue the position of these doctors, a “junior” is anyone that is not a consultant. Some never become consultants, a “junior” could be the one operating on you, they could be running a cardiac arrest, or trauma calls, they will almost always be the one doing emergency procedures in A&E.



The pension is not bad, but its not like it was, you still pay 14.5% of your pay into the pension, and it's not a final salary like it was before, it is career average so if your average is low your pension is crap also.


Also it's not a world of private work after you become a consultant, very few actually do any private work, and it is not as lucrative as you may think after costs and insurance.
 
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You could still afford to work over 550 hours, not get paid for months and when you finally got paid, donate the earnings to charity because you’d given up on getting it. Wasn’t that estimated at over £30K?

Seems like it’s pretty lucrative to me.

That was 2 months locum I did between jobs, but 550 was a hell of a lot of work to do in 2 months.
 
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If its a defined benefit pension and similar to civil service (1/30th or so per year you put in) then it's pretty damn good pension.

Yes the pay is pretty mediocre but id say bigger issue is that the hours sound absolutely awful.

Personally I wouldn't do it, but then again I would struggle to pass the exams (and I did a masters degree in engineering).

The bigger problem is passing the exams you have to take while working a 48h week and having a family. When you are a student in med school you can sit and study 12h a day if you need to
 
i'll add a lot of them get double their base pay because they do over time. so the figure isnt truely representative.

keep in mind a working week is 48h, its hard to do extra shifts as a locum but they are somewhat supply and demand driven so rates can be higher. Its not really overtime, its extra contractual work and it may be in another hospital.
If you stay lake on a working day you don't really get overtime payment.
I don't like the fact they're going on strike but I do think they're underpaid.



That's odd, and not true for two close relatives in two different NHS trusts both at consultant level, they are/were 40 hours a week.

AFAIK 48 hours is the maximum you're supposed to work on average, it's not the defining characteristic of "full-time" as far as the NHS is concerned.

consultants working week is 40h, other doctors are 48.
 
Is the strike purely pay related, or other issues?
Purely on pay, no I don’t think they should go on strike.
Surely, if you commit to medical school etc to become a doctor, you know well in advance the general pay and working hours to expect.
None of the take home salaries in simply money terms, are poor, and after a few years look quite decent - yr5 on is what, 60k a year gross?
This isn’t just a job you take because there was nothing else and now you’re stuck there.

Well the pay was 26% higher 10 years ago, plus at the time you got free accommodation, did not have £80k of debt so they have moved the goal posts a little.


I agree you dont go into it for the money but i think its fair to say that these kids have the right to be comfortable and paid for the level of service they provide.

keep in mind a PA, Band 7 nurse in London is pay more than a ST5 doctor. Even a first year nurse in london is paid more than a new doctor.
 
I do have side gigs but honestly there are very few that have things on the side.

Do you know many doctors? unless they come from money most young doctors are far from comfortable.

Yes they are starting out for the first year or 2 but from then on they have a LOT of responsibility.

Re that job, that is far far from the norm but it just goes to make a point that doctors are actually worth more than they are paid. If a JD made £90k no one would be complaining.
 
nonconsultant medics do not make £76k full-time equivalent.

FY1 £29,384
FY2 £34,012
ST1/2 £40,257
ST3+ £51,017

That's base pay, for 40h week, you get paid pro rata because you do 48h and then a little premium for nights and weekends, but not £76k average.

Consultants are £88k
 
I think the pay is mostly fine, certainly could be increased for carers, nurses etc.

However, I think the costs associated with it and working conditons are the real issue. Huge student loans, unpaid work/OT, unpaid residencies, insurances, long hours under obviously stressful conditions and so on.
agree on the working conditions but you know the JD's are paid about the same or a little less than the nurses and we all agree they are underpaid
 
No. A band 5 nurse at the bottom of the band (ie fresh nurse out of uni) starts at £27k for a 37.5h week
So per- hour, nurse v doctor (both fresh from uni) the nurse actually earns more.


I can’t upload the image. Can someone do it please see link

Take home pay of my partner who is a ITU nurse on 37.5h a week 2 years out of uni is £2300 per month in london.
Take home for a FY2 is about £2600 for a 48h week.
 
Also the cost to pay all junior doctors £10k pa more is £465 million per year after tax recovery.

Nothing compared to the billions wasted in PPE and track and trace.

Don’t forget we were the ones on the shop floor saving the lives of the nation through covid at huge personal expense.
 
Yes. Your F1 has a progressive career ahead of them, that is their incentive.
You need to pay an employee a fair wage for the service they provide now, not throttle their wage because they may or may not earn more in the future.


A nurse starts at band 5, if they do further training, courses, a master's, and professional exams they can progress just as doctors do.
its just most nurses choose not to push them self so hard and strop at band 7.



As you can see there is scope for progression:


A PA is paid at band 7, they see a patient in ED and then they have to come to me and discuses their patient, I make the plan, I prescribes the medications, I take responsibility for the patient as I am the senior decision maker. Now why should the PA be paid more than me per hour?

Im not saying the PA is over paid, they get a fair wage but a ST5 doctor is way under paid for the level of training, responsibility and education we have.
 
Yea, not many jobs out there that set you up in a path guaranteed to be 100k+

Consultants start on 88k,


Find me a job that does not pay a 100k that requires
Some of the brightest most educated students
Masters + undergrad
a further 10 years of training
being moved all over the country
shift work (which is unusual for white-collar work)
and a further 9 years as a consultant after the 10 years to get there to make it to £100k.

People done go into medicine for the money but they dont go into the career to be taken advantage off which is what is happening.
 
I think they just need more doctors so at lower levels.
It will lower wages at the high end too when they progress.
this is just a lack of understanding of the job.

What they need is a more efficient system where doctors are actually doing real doctor work and not just admin crap half of the day.

That’s what they should be using the PA’s for.


If you come into ED with a heart attack, stroke, sepsis. Do you want to be seen by a doctor or a PA with 2 years at PA school?
 
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