Just started my DAS, advice needed!

Buchanan0204 · 28 May 2012 at 23:57

Hola,

I had my second lesson today as part of my DAS. I completed my CBT in august 2010, so chasing two years and I've never been on a bike since, nor before the CBT.

I jumped on the big bike and was told to just drive off after a brief intro to the bike, he jumped on his bike behind me and told me in the ear piece to just head off when ready. I was bricking it!! I had to remember rapidly what to do with the gears. Anyway, by some miracle I seemed to do OK and went away for an hour on the bike riding around town and some country roads. I thought I was doing pretty good for my first time.

I know the area well and I drive, so I knew what lane to be in and what speed limits were etc etc. All I had to concetrate on was controlling the bike.

Anyway... onto today, I had a two hour slot booked and rode onto the by-pass which is a hell of a lot scarier than I thought it would be, it was so windy!

I feel as if I'm getting the hang of it pretty quickly and I'm learning myself if you like. The instructors not teaching me anything at all, he's just happy to let me ride around and get comfortable with it at the moment, which I'm happy with as well I suppose.

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However, here's where my problem comes in. I never know what gear I'm in and struggle to pick the correct gear for the corner, roundabout, junction etc. The bike has no way of telling you what gear you're in. I stalled it today thinking I was in first when I was in second/third etc. Sometimes going round a bend I think I'm in second when it's obviously higher as I hear the bike chugging.

Is there any tips for this? Also, in a car, it's recommended to change at 2.5kRPM and that's considered ideal and eco etc. However, I'm not sure when I should be changing on the bike. Obviously they rev much higher, so is it acceptable to be idling along at 4-5kRPM?

Any tips, advice or words of wisdom would be greatly appreciated.

Brackish · 29 May 2012 at 08:10

Hey there!

Good one for starting DAS!

Don't worry too much about the gears, you will find you will gel with them very soon. What bike are you on by the way?

Most of the learner big bikes have good amounts of torque so the power can start at 3k revs. My instructor told me to keep a busy engine and slip the clutch for slow corners and moving off and whilst riding along keep the revs just above 3k. I did find my self doing 30 in 4 gear and finding that the slightest drop in speed caused the bike to chug so i did it as 10mph for each of the gears 1 to 4 and 5 was for 50+ mph, this being based on a Suzuki GS500 and when I moved to the 650cc I found I could stay in 3rd and 2nd (easy counting the gears then) for 30mph and 4th upto 50mph and 5th upto 60mph etc.

Don't be afraid to ask him questions about the bike. Like where the power starts, his own methods for tracking what gear your in. Just ask him!

Oh and if you are in say 3rd gear doing 30mph and you shift down to 2nd the bike will drop a good 8+mph with its own engine braking so if that happens you know you were in a good gear at that moment.

EDIT: If you are on a roundabout and your in 2nd gear but the bike feels like it is chugging try pulling the clutch in a tiny amount and rev the engine a tin amount more and you should feel the bike becomes responsive but with a burst of speed.

SKILL · 29 May 2012 at 08:22

There's two ways I think to 'know' what gear your in, either just by keeping a mental note of up/downshifts which can be a bit awkward when you forget but you get used to it, the other is just by knowing the bike, which isn't really relevant to a DAS course but after a while you'll what gear by quickly checking speed/revs.

Anyway, few things you can do, when coming up to a junction go down through the gears releasing the clutch after each shift whilst braking, do this 'right' and you'll be in first as you roll up to the line/junction and ready to pull away (and acts as a reset if you'd forgotten the gear up to that point). Secondly most bikes will happily sit in 6th at anything 40 or above so if you get to that kind of road you can just upshift until you can't go up anymore, again giving you a known gear

But really it's just experience. A further thing about the gears, when pulling away be quite gentle and ready to pull the clutch back in/slip it should you be in the wrong gear, it's not ideal but you can pull away in 3rd on a 125 let alone a bigger bike, and better than stalling it

Really up to you, the bike, the road etc as to what revs you want to sit at. On my street triple I can happily trundle along in 6th at ~1.5k rpm or I can do the same speed in 1st at >10k rpm, and anything in between. 4-5k isn't a bad place to be and could potentially make it easier in terms of having not having to worry too much about the gear. Whatever works for you basically.

Buchanan0204 · 29 May 2012 at 13:23

Thanks a bundle guys. I'll read over these posts again and be sure to take it in.

I'm on a Honda cbr500.

pugheaven · 29 May 2012 at 13:37

Nice one matey... looks like you're enjoying it and doing well. From my limited experience (I passed my DAS 2.5 weeks ago)... I'd agree with the others, it's a feel and listening thing... there's no real right or wrong thing here... as long as you're comfortable. When coming upto junctions or roundabouts, I tend to find that I can drop down through the gears nicely... usually getting to 2nd as I'm coming to a stop... so unless I KNOW I'm going to come to a dead stop I can accelerate smoothly in 2nd without the "hop" which can happen with too much throttle in 1st. I only go into 1st if I KNOW I'm coming to a nigh (1-3mph for example) on stop or complete stop... tootling in 1st gear. Everyones different though and it's finding what's comfortable for you. Some just don't use the gears, slip clutch in and grind to a halt and simply hit the gears down to 1st without actually using any of the intermediate ones to use the engine braking.

Also, depending on the roundabouts or corners i.e. how sharp they are... making sure you're in a nice gear is essential (well it is to me), so I'll cometimes go around a corner in a slightly higher gear than others simply so I don't get any "hoping" etc with a twitchy throttle... sometimes when I'm leaning a little and concentrating I can open the throttle a little too much at the moment, so if I d in a higher gear the bike is still stable.

It's one of them mate, just need to learn that bike... all bikes are different... I'l cruise at 50+mph in highest gear and the revs are lowish but bike feels and sound right... you can tell by the sound of the exhaust/engine if your gearing too high for the speed of the bike...

When's your next session then?

Macky · 29 May 2012 at 13:39

If you're rolling to a stop it's not going to hurt the bike to click down a few more times just to make sure that you are in first. I always do it a few extra times just so I'm sure that I'm in first as my bike doesn't have a gear indicator either. I once managed to do a hill start in 3rd somehow haha thinking I was in 1st I just thought the bike was breaking. I had to use full revs and the slowest clutch ever but she got there in the end!

pugheaven · 29 May 2012 at 13:48

Macky said:
If you're rolling to a stop it's not going to hurt the bike to click down a few more times just to make sure that you are in first. I always do it a few extra times just so I'm sure that I'm in first as my bike doesn't have a gear indicator either. I once managed to do a hill start in 3rd somehow haha thinking I was in 1st I just thought the bike was breaking. I had to use full revs and the slowest clutch ever but she got there in the end!

ROFL quality, yeah, If I'm at a stop I'm always doing a couple of extra "clicks" to make sure I'm in first. I've also done the "in neutral" acceleration of nothingness as well from a set of lets wondering why I'm not moving rofl :-)

Listerine · 29 May 2012 at 15:19

pugheaven said:
ROFL quality, yeah, If I'm at a stop I'm always doing a couple of extra "clicks" to make sure I'm in first. I've also done the "in neutral" acceleration of nothingness as well from a set of lets wondering why I'm not moving rofl

That's happened to me on my old bike more times than I wished. It would go from a nice smooth acceleration in 1st to a 'BAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH' sound as i geared 'up' into neutral!

I agree with slowing down to 2nd gear as it's not as skittish as 1st and it can handle a smoother transition of slowing down to speeding up again.

Depending on the corner, I would use some clutch control as it would give me the slowness and control while turning but with minimal effort (releasing clutch lever) it would give me enough bite to accelerate away without struggle.

Macky · 29 May 2012 at 16:34

Yeah sometimes my bike slips into false neutral too. You kinda lerch forward a bit due to accelerating and then no acceleration. Annoying hehe.

SKILL · 29 May 2012 at 20:19

Yeah, I only shift into first at very very low speed just before coming to a stop...

One thing I forgot, I've found bike gearboxes can be a bit awkward about shifting down whilst stationary with the clutch in (when doing more than 1 gear at a time), so If I do do that for whatever reason I let the clutch out just to the biting point where you can feel the drag, and do that for each gear just to make 100% it's shifted/not found a false neutral.

Buchanan0204 · 30 May 2012 at 14:37

Any tips on going slowly round bends, especially taking off at junctions?

Brackish · 30 May 2012 at 15:01

Slip the clutch and cover the rear brake, get rolling so you are not wobbly (or too wobbly) then turn and lean with the bike (if you feel your too fast then very gently apply the rear brake and as you start slowing re position the clutch so the bike does not chug or slow down too much but do not hold the rear brake down the whole turn as the rear brake will just be fighting the clutch), you will learn how the bike and your self feel when doing this.

Again it is just best to go by what your instructor says. (providing he is teaching you correctly) Have you done some figure of 8's off road yet?

Buchanan0204 · 30 May 2012 at 15:29

Brackish said:
Slip the clutch and cover the rear brake, get rolling so you are not wobbly (or too wobbly) then turn and lean with the bike (if you feel your too fast then very gently apply the rear brake and as you start slowing re position the clutch so the bike does not chug or slow down too much but do not hold the rear brake down the whole turn as the rear brake will just be fighting the clutch), you will learn how the bike and your self feel when doing this.

Again it is just best to go by what your instructor says. (providing he is teaching you correctly) Have you done some figure of 8's off road yet?

He's taught me literally nothing. I'm just picking everything up on my own. He doesn't want to over complicate things or have me over thinking things.

I've not done any figure of 8's yet. My CBT was nearly 2 years ago now and I forget 80% of it as it was a one day crash course thing.

I was turning left at a junction today, I had to stop as it was a busy road. There was a bus coming from the right, I had enough time to pull out although I kept looking and checking right when I was pulling out as it's a habbit I have in the car to always check numerous times to be cautious of cars speeding up etc. I ended up inches from the other side of the road heading towards a single decker bus!! Needless to say I **** myself!

I seem to struggle taking off going round the bend. I always over rev or whatever. Again, he's not taught me anything or reminded me how to do it.

Regardless I'm getting there. I've had 4-5 hours now in total and definitely better than I was when I first jumped on.

He did mention today to feather the clutch a lot as it's unlike a car. I started doing that more often.

Thanks to those who offered advice on the gears. I was keeping a mental note of what gear I was in and it worked a lot better for me today. I could pick the right gear appropriate. One thing annoying about the bike is there is quite a bit of a deadzone on the throttle... I'm not a lover of this and often find me over revving or under revving due to this. grr!

Thanks again guys! I'll keep you updated on my progress. Back out on Monday for two hours and I've got my theory booked for Wednesday.

Ghosteh · 30 May 2012 at 16:09

No offence, but if your instructor is teaching you nothing, I'd go else where. I agree with not wanting to over complicate things, or make you over think things. But you need to know how to do things in the first place, and not have to come onto forums to find out what you should be doing, while paying for an instructor to simply be following you around. Do you have a 1 or 2 way radio at least? Does he talk to you about road positioning and what not?

Good luck with the course though

.

Brackish · 30 May 2012 at 16:26

I agree with Gosteh, if he is not teaching you things you think you need to know whether by your admission or not he should know that you HAVE to learn these things from HIM and not from us!

You should tell him to teach you like you have NOT ridden a bike before, ask him to explain how that particular bike works etc. Only you can over complicate things by thinking too much, I was the same on my CBT but once I got onto the big bike it just fell into place because my thoughts were things like OSM (observation, signal, manoeuvre) rather than, 'oh crud what lane, my speed! what gear... arrgghhh'

Buchanan0204 · 30 May 2012 at 18:42

I was thinking the same thing. He is a nice guy and definitely seems OK. I just wish he would actually teach me things rather than letting me pick it up myself. He tells me when I do the odd thing wrong but doesn't explain in detail how to fix it.

It's an unlimited course, so it doesn't cost me extra for lessons, I just take as many as I want/need. Maybe that's why he's chilled out?

We do have a one way radio. It's used mostly for directions and then the odd comment if I do something really good or really bad. Which is rare on both of those.

I've paid up front, so I'm sticking it out. I'll ask him to teach me more. He does tell me things when I ask, but not in great detail. Just tells me not to worry and it'll come in time type thing. Which I suppose is true. Perhaps I'm wanting it all to happen too quickly.

pugheaven · 30 May 2012 at 19:50

Time in the saddle, if the guy isn't really saying your doing wrong, suppose you might not be... at the end of the day, you wouldn't want him critisising you all the time as you'd be on a downer. The question really is... are you getting better and more confident? If you are, then he's doing his job... if not, then he needs to up the ante a little and help you in the areas your worried about. Ask Ask Ask him, simple... mention things you think you're doing wrong and ask if he sees it etc.

Buchanan0204 · 31 May 2012 at 20:50

pugheaven said:
Time in the saddle, if the guy isn't really saying your doing wrong, suppose you might not be... at the end of the day, you wouldn't want him critisising you all the time as you'd be on a downer. The question really is... are you getting better and more confident? If you are, then he's doing his job... if not, then he needs to up the ante a little and help you in the areas your worried about. Ask Ask Ask him, simple... mention things you think you're doing wrong and ask if he sees it etc.

I am getting more confident, my first lesson I was doing 30-40 in the 60's and 20-25 in the 30's. a few hours later I'm doing the speed limit where appropriate.

I do want to work more on town driving, stopping, starting, taking away round bends etc. It's easy going in a straight line down a country road.

Cheers again.

P.S. Would it be a stupid thing to buy a ZX-6R as a first bike?

BigRazer93 · 31 May 2012 at 22:06

Buchanan0204 said:
I am getting more confident, my first lesson I was doing 30-40 in the 60's and 20-25 in the 30's. a few hours later I'm doing the speed limit where appropriate.

I do want to work more on town driving, stopping, starting, taking away round bends etc. It's easy going in a straight line down a country road.

Cheers again.

P.S. Would it be a stupid thing to buy a ZX-6R as a first bike?

Good job on going for your bike test by the way!

Like you said, you are gaining confidence already with the speed which helps a lot in the rest of your riding. I found country roads to be quite good to gain confidence as your always scanning what's in front of you for hazards, correct positioning around corners and thinking what to do next with other road users. The problem I found with town driving is that when it's busy, its hard as there are may, many, MANY idiots out on the road that you have to look out for!

How tall are you? If your more than 6ft 2, then the ZX6R isn't the bike for you. You will probably want to look at something for example: Yamaha FZ6, Suzuki Bandit, Honda hornet them type of bikes. As well as being a lot more comfortable for the tall user, it also has the sporty looks (FZ6, Hornet) and defiantly the power aswel!

Hope this helps

Buchanan0204 · 1 Jun 2012 at 17:07

Ben-Irvine93 said:
Good job on going for your bike test by the way!

Like you said, you are gaining confidence already with the speed which helps a lot in the rest of your riding. I found country roads to be quite good to gain confidence as your always scanning what's in front of you for hazards, correct positioning around corners and thinking what to do next with other road users. The problem I found with town driving is that when it's busy, its hard as there are may, many, MANY idiots out on the road that you have to look out for!

How tall are you? If your more than 6ft 2, then the ZX6R isn't the bike for you. You will probably want to look at something for example: Yamaha FZ6, Suzuki Bandit, Honda hornet them type of bikes. As well as being a lot more comfortable for the tall user, it also has the sporty looks (FZ6, Hornet) and defiantly the power aswel!

Hope this helps

I'm exactly 6ft 2. Would the zx10-r be any better/bigger/comfier?

It's hard enough avoiding idiots in the car, it seems suicidal on a bike. All part of the fun haha. If I don't post within a few weeks. I'm away to a happier place.