Latest highway code

[whitecrook]

Hi all

just reading the latest hway code came across this about box junctions:

Rule 174
Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (see ‘Road markings’). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. At signalled roundabouts you MUST NOT enter the box unless you can cross over it completely without stopping.

now has this changed in recent times? I had believed the rule was must not stop in box junctions, but this does not seem to prohibit that, providing of course you enter it when your exit is clear.
It would possible to enter when you exit is clear but it could be subsequently blocked and you would stop in the box, this is not prohibited? Additionally it does not say that you must clear it completely but for a roundabout box (signal controlled) you must clear completely.

Technically, then a stream of cars driving over a box are all breaking the law since they are entering before their exit is clear.

i had thought many people took exit mist be clear in order to comply with a must not stop, the same way double whites does not prohibit overtaking (as long as you do not cross them)

 

[whitecrook]

Rule 178
Advanced stop lines. Some signal-controlled junctions have advanced stop lines to allow cycles to be positioned ahead of other traffic. Motorists, including motorcyclists, MUST stop at the first white line reached if the lights are amber or red and should avoid blocking the way or encroaching on the marked area at other times, e.g. if the junction ahead is blocked. If your vehicle has proceeded over the first white line at the time that the signal goes red, you MUST stop at the second white line, even if your vehicle is in the marked area. Allow cyclists time and space to move off when the green signal shows.

This says you must stop at the asl if its amber or red, but if you have passed the asl but before the stop line, and it turns red then you must stop. This can only happen if you cross the asl on green and it goes amber red before you hit the stop line, no? I.e very slow moving traffic

 

[whitecrook]

Isn't the principle aimed at when you are in slow traffic rather than moving freely? If the exit from the junction is blocked and you just blindly follow the car in the front, you'll be blocking the other routes through the junction. Therefore wait outside the box junction and proceed over once your exit is clear, leaving the junction free.

but that's not what it says

 

[whitecrook]

Hmm I've find many references to fines when you stop in a junction but where is the law that you can't do that ? for examples literally

"The basic rule is that you are not allowed to stop in a yellow box junction."

from this page : https://thegrumpygit.com/how-to-appeal-a-yellow-box-junction-ticket/

and "Many motorists are not aware (no wonder, it's not mentioned anywhere I can find!!!!) that you can be fined for turning left at a junction where there is a yellow box if there is traffic in the road you are turning into and you are unable to clear the box. Transport for London are enforcing this."
from this page : https://penaltychargenotice.co.uk/m...ons-for-moving-traffic/contravention-code-31/

(OK, but this doesn't say if the exit was clear when you 'entered' Which is what the HWcode says)
plus a bunch of other sites from a quick google.

but again, this is not what the highway code says.

it links Law TSRGD regs 10(1) & 29(2) but I can't find the bit about stopping being an offence


does anyone have a highway code from mid 90's handy ?



another interesting link here : https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=1686787

 

[whitecrook]

that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

So this bit, here, if I understand correctly, means that no person (i.e anyone, including the driver of 'the' vehicle) may cause a vehicle to stop (i.e. including the vehicle he is driving?) due to stationary vehicles, so if a driver entered a box junction, and had to stop their vehicle (because of stationary vehicles) then that is an offence?

So my original question in OP was right - the law says you must not stop in a box ?

Secondly i see the that it is only due to 'presence of stationary vehicles' So if the stop is because of a pedestrian, or horse or similar, this is not an offence, and indeed, even if the vehicle is not stationary, but causes my vehicle to stop, this also, would not be an offence ?

 

[whitecrook]

If you think traffic either in front or turning left will cause you to stop in the box, dont enter it. Only stop in a box if you are turning right and oncoming traffic prevents you from making progress.. simple as that. Dont overthink it dude.

This isn't my question though.

 

[whitecrook]

If you stop in a box junction because you can't leave it due to the presence of another vehicle then yes you have committed an offence, except when turning right as described.

If you stop in the box to avoid a collision with a pedestrian etc then you have not committed an offence.

OK thanks. So could you clear up on the MUST NOT enter unless exit is clear ? Since accordingly above, If I enter, but my exit is not clear, but I keep moving (i.e. do not stop) and successfully clear the box (the vehicle in front cleared it so I could too, for example) , is that an offence ? It doesn't look like it to me, although the hwaycode says MUST NOT that actual law above does not say that?

 

[whitecrook]

Here is a 1970 Public Information film on how to use box junctions:

ahhh so its different again!? Now you can wait if you're turning right. can't you ? lol

 

[whitecrook]

Well you can in that little film.
The key wording has always been "If your exit is clear".

No, it says

"However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right."

"You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right"


Nothing about if your exit is clear. Neither was true in that film.

 

[whitecrook]

Transcript from the video:

0:09 - ....but if you want to turn right you can wait on the box while oncoming traffic passes or turns, provided your way out to the right is clear.
0:017 - .....if that exit is blocked you must wait outside the box

How is that NOT "You may not enter the box unless your exit is clear"?

"You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right"

So the 'however' in this case does not negate the previous clause then ?? It basically means, 'but'

however | haʊˈɛvə | adverb1 used to introduce a statement that contrasts with or seems to contradict something that has been said previously


I read it as you must not enter the box until your exit is clear, UNLESS/BUT you may enter the box and wait if you're turning right. Otherwise it would say 'EVEN IF, instead of HOWEVER' ?

in fact, if this is the case why even bother with second part of sentence ? at all times must not enter box if exit is not clear. No, if's, buts' or howevers.


in case we have crossed wires here:

How is that NOT "You may not enter the box unless your exit is clear"?

My point that the video says something different ot today. Today you MAY enter the box if you are turning right.

 

[whitecrook]

The offence is stopping in the box, strictly speaking.

Thank you. This is EXACTLY what my question was in the OP.