Soldato
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even cheaper here in new zealand 
and we have all the wind 
and we have all the wind Learning to fly...
- Thread starter megakid
- Start date
Hi
I am a PPL holder so know a little bit about the subject.
As people have stated, you're probably looking around £6k for a PPL in the UK, depending on your general aptitude and how many hours you take to complete the course. Many people complete the course around the 45-50 hour mark (45 being minimum), but it is not unheard of for people to take much longer. Obviously this will lead to increased costs.
It is not uncommon for people to go to the USA, Europe or places such as South Africa, etc. to gain their license (including a PPL), but when you get back to the UK you will need to conversion training before you can rent an aircraft, etc. and it would only be prudent. I can't speak for the other countries, but flying in the USA is quite different with a lot less dense controlled airspace.
I trained at Elstree to the North of London whilst living in London. It probably took be about 1hr30 to get to the airfield so living in London shouldn't put you off. There are also plenty of other airfields including the likes of Biggin Hill, North Weald, Panshanger, etc.
As for airspace restrictions the airspace around London is very congested, but I didn't find it much of an issue and if you can handle flying there you should be fine anywhere. You wouldn't want to learn in a place where there is no controlled airspace and then find yourself with a PPL not knowing what to do. It's also no where near as bad as it sounds.
Re the CPL and restrictions on flying in good weather on a PPL you can get a night rating. This is not an additional license but a rating added to your license and probably takes about 5 or so hours to obtain. If you want to fly in bad weather you have two main options. You can either get a IR (Instrument Rating) which is an internationally recognised rating and will allow you to fly in instrument conditions in the UK and the rest of Europe (probably US to). On the other hand you have been able to get a IMC, which allows you to fly in instrument conditions within UK airspace, but it is not recognised in the rest of Europe. However, the status of the IMC has recently been put into question as a central European agency are soon to take over the licensing procedure.
In terms of aircraft, you will most likely learn on either a C150/152 or PA-28, depending on the school.
I hope that helps.
If you have any specific questions a great place to go is www.pprune.org.
John
/raises hand
I have done a few hrs of flying, but ideally if I actually want flying as a means to an end (i.e. to fly myself away to somewhere in Europe for a weekend), the single engine Pipers/ Cessnas are just too slow/ restricted on range to get anywhere decent. These aircraft typically cruise between 80-90 Kts and have a range of a few hundred miles (Much like a car)
With a PPL:
-Is it possible to rent something with a more powerful single engine? i.e. perhaps cap
-How easy is it to 'upgrade' the license to be able to fly light twin props and so on?
I have done a few hrs of flying, but ideally if I actually want flying as a means to an end (i.e. to fly myself away to somewhere in Europe for a weekend), the single engine Pipers/ Cessnas are just too slow/ restricted on range to get anywhere decent. These aircraft typically cruise between 80-90 Kts and have a range of a few hundred miles (Much like a car)
With a PPL:
-Is it possible to rent something with a more powerful single engine? i.e. perhaps cap
-How easy is it to 'upgrade' the license to be able to fly light twin props and so on?
Associate
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- 6 Jan 2009
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- 358
I started learning to fly at Shoreham in 1999-2000, but sadly moved before I could get close to getting my PPL. (Did try again, but all the airfields near where I lived were piddly little grass field only, with no real traffic control, which I'm sure is great when you've got your ppl, but I think is bad for learning in).
I thought with the US stuff you could do your training and exams to CAA regulations?
I thought with the US stuff you could do your training and exams to CAA regulations?
A SEP (single engine piston) PPL entitles you I believe to fly any single engined aeroplane, although differences training may be required to fly an aircraft with retractable undercarraige, constant speed prop, etc.
I'm not sure what you mean by "cap"; the aerobatic aircraft, CAP 232, etc? I've flown a bit in an Extra 300, but it's not the sort of aircraft you would want to be touring in. A 172 can cruise above 100kts and may have 4 or 5 hours of fuel. Whilst this might not be much more than you car, it does have the advantage of not having to follow the paths of roads or stop for traffic. There are also plenty of other single engine aircraft that will cruise around the 130-150 kts range.
In terms of upgrading to twins I think it's a pretty open ended question. There are no specific hour requirements I think, so I believe it will to a large extent depend on your appitude. One note is that generally speaking twins are much more expensive.
You can, but the problem is the airspace/traffic control procedures/etc. cannot be replicated so any flying club/rental organisation would want to see you checked out before they would consider handing you the keys to an aircraft in the UK and that process will likely take a few hours.
Associate
- Joined
- 6 Jan 2009
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Another side effect of learning to fly is that you learn the standard phonetic alphabet, and will then be forever annoyed at people who do the 'A for Apple, B for Bart' thing when spelling stuff out on the phone. (Or worse, when they apprently know the phonetic alphabet too, but still go 'W for Whiskey, Tango for T ....' rather than just 'Whisky Tango')
I do that now, spins a lot of people out on the phone when spelling a surname.
"Whats your last name"
"Rogers, Romeo Oscar Golf Echo Romero Siera"
Associate
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- 6 Jan 2009
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- 358
Nothing wrong with doing it right, it's doing it wrong that becomes infuriating.
Going back to my question regarding starting my training here and continuing when I get back - is learning to fly like learning to drive?
i.e. if your parents take you out a lot before your first lesson, then generally you'll need less lessons when you begin (in other words, the instructor will recognize the hours you've put in before beginning). Relating this back to flying, could I start a PPL course out here, do say 20 hours of flight time (I guess this is logged in my flight log?) and then I relocate back to London. Could I then go down to Biggin Hill and start another PPL course and do the remaining 25-35 hours there? Or do these PPL courses follow a strict curriculum/schedule meaning jumping countries half-way through won't work out?
I don't mind doing an extra few hours when I get back to London to familiarize myself with the busier airspace etc (In fact, I'd make sure I did do this) but I would like to get started here
Can anyone see any issues with doing this?
I picked up a few brochures today and am reading through them now - will make some calls tomorrow and try to organize something this weekend.
Haha, that would throw me off for sure.
John_V85 - Thanks for your long informative post - definitely excited me by the prospect of learning all this stuff!
i.e. if your parents take you out a lot before your first lesson, then generally you'll need less lessons when you begin (in other words, the instructor will recognize the hours you've put in before beginning). Relating this back to flying, could I start a PPL course out here, do say 20 hours of flight time (I guess this is logged in my flight log?) and then I relocate back to London. Could I then go down to Biggin Hill and start another PPL course and do the remaining 25-35 hours there? Or do these PPL courses follow a strict curriculum/schedule meaning jumping countries half-way through won't work out?
I don't mind doing an extra few hours when I get back to London to familiarize myself with the busier airspace etc (In fact, I'd make sure I did do this) but I would like to get started here
Can anyone see any issues with doing this?
I picked up a few brochures today and am reading through them now - will make some calls tomorrow and try to organize something this weekend.
Haha, that would throw me off for sure.
John_V85 - Thanks for your long informative post - definitely excited me by the prospect of learning all this stuff!
Best thing to do is get over the www.pprune.org and ask there in the "Private Flying" forum. There are plenty of people far more knowledgeable than me who will no doubt help with any questions.
There are strict rules as to what hours count towards the 45 required and it is worth doing some detailed reading on this before committing to anything. Various countries have different licensing authorities. I don't mean to put you off but I would make sure you find out for certain and perhaps not take the casual word of a flying instructor who assures you it will be fine. The last position you would want to be in is back in London still requiring 45 hours, but having already spent several thousand pounds. That said, a couple hours couldn't hurt so you can figure out if it's something you really want to do.
If you have any questions you can add me to MSN (email in Trust).
Edit: Section C1 of Lasors http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=1591 goes into the hour requirements of the JAR PPL(A).
There are strict rules as to what hours count towards the 45 required and it is worth doing some detailed reading on this before committing to anything. Various countries have different licensing authorities. I don't mean to put you off but I would make sure you find out for certain and perhaps not take the casual word of a flying instructor who assures you it will be fine. The last position you would want to be in is back in London still requiring 45 hours, but having already spent several thousand pounds. That said, a couple hours couldn't hurt so you can figure out if it's something you really want to do.
If you have any questions you can add me to MSN (email in Trust).
Edit: Section C1 of Lasors http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=1591 goes into the hour requirements of the JAR PPL(A).
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Another good thing to do while you can is learn the phoenetic pronounciation of letters/numbers/words and what is and isn't correct radio speak, as it will massively speed things up at the start.
Things like thousand being pronounced 'towsand' and 993 being pronounced 'niner niner tree'.
If you can, get hold of this book, will be a fantastic help to what you'll need to learn.
Things like thousand being pronounced 'towsand' and 993 being pronounced 'niner niner tree'.
If you can, get hold of this book, will be a fantastic help to what you'll need to learn.
Lots of good information has been posted, especially John V85. A lot of the questions about what airfield and what aircraft are getting a little over complicated. Just keep it simple. The best thing when learning to fly is consistency or currency as we call it in flying. The more often you fly the quicker you will improve. Hence it is better to fly from an airfield that is close to you then having to drive an extra hour say to a airfield that people 'say' is better. As for the type of aircraft it really doesn't matter. Be it 150 or PA28 they both have pro's and con's. Which ever you pass your test on will give you a SEP rating which allows you to fly ANY type of piston aircraft (altho as mentioned differences trainig might be required but that is usually only a single flight or so with an instructor) A lot of people actually advocate that flying a number of different types whilst training will sharpen your handling skills.
As for using the PPL for actual useful things well you need to be a little specific about what you want to do. Generally an SEP isn't that useful for example going on holiday since with full fuel it generally won't have a very useful load, in fact most SEPs can't have full fuel AND carry 4 adults at the same time. As for the speed in the cruise well thats a little complicated since the True airspeed, Indicated airspeed and Ground speed are all variable! Most SEPs will cruise around the 100-120kts indicated, however depending on your altitude this could actually give you a true airspeed of say 150kts, which with a tailwind could give you a ground speed of 200kts! Confusing eh Gets even more confusing when you have to start dealing with mach number haha 
luckily thats not the case with SEP hehe.
Learning in Austrailia isn't a bad idea at all. It is generally quite a bit cheaper to fly out there so it wouldn't be bad to learn the basics over there. These hours probably wouldn't be allowed to be included in the actual requirements for a European PPL however they would mean that you already know how to fly when you do start the european PPL and hence would most likely be able to do it in the minimum 45hrs (most people take at least 50+ hours depending on how often they fly and general skill etc)
Feel free to ask any questions, either me or John will be able to answer them I'm sure.
As for using the PPL for actual useful things well you need to be a little specific about what you want to do. Generally an SEP isn't that useful for example going on holiday since with full fuel it generally won't have a very useful load, in fact most SEPs can't have full fuel AND carry 4 adults at the same time. As for the speed in the cruise well thats a little complicated since the True airspeed, Indicated airspeed and Ground speed are all variable! Most SEPs will cruise around the 100-120kts indicated, however depending on your altitude this could actually give you a true airspeed of say 150kts, which with a tailwind could give you a ground speed of 200kts! Confusing eh
Gets even more confusing when you have to start dealing with mach number haha luckily thats not the case with SEP hehe. Learning in Austrailia isn't a bad idea at all. It is generally quite a bit cheaper to fly out there so it wouldn't be bad to learn the basics over there. These hours probably wouldn't be allowed to be included in the actual requirements for a European PPL however they would mean that you already know how to fly when you do start the european PPL and hence would most likely be able to do it in the minimum 45hrs (most people take at least 50+ hours depending on how often they fly and general skill etc)
Feel free to ask any questions, either me or John will be able to answer them I'm sure.