London Mayor Elections

The Halk · 27 Apr 2012 at 21:49

Taking the right to vote from someone is a frighteningly serious step towards totalitarianism.

When citizen and voter are not the same thing we lose democracy.

The train of thought should be -
Citizen? Has the vote.
Has the vote? Needs to be able to read leaflets.

The reactionaries and fascists here are quick to want to change the law retrospectively. That is not the way to a free and fair society.

Muffin` · 27 Apr 2012 at 21:52

The Halk said:
Taking the right to vote from someone is a frighteningly serious step towards totalitarianism.

When citizen and voter are not the same thing we lose democracy.

The train of thought should be -
Citizen? Has the vote.
Has the vote? Needs to be able to read leaflets.

The reactionaries and fascists here are quick to want to change the law retrospectively. That is not the way to a free and fair society.

We don't give the right to vote to prisoners, do you think that they should? the government is currently at ends with the EU on that matter. There's more to a democracy than purely a right to vote. Constitutional law and property rights to name a few. We're far from totalitarianism.

TJM · 27 Apr 2012 at 21:52

badcompany said:
they just don't bother to integrate and they actively segregate themselves in enclaves.

That's how immigrant communities work. I wish the Costa del Sol could be carpet bombed, but it's unrealistic to expect people who have grown up elsewhere to abandon their language or culture, particularly when the only people who they will be able to communicate with are fellow immigrants.

badcompany · 27 Apr 2012 at 21:53

The Halk said:
Taking the right to vote from someone is a frighteningly serious step towards totalitarianism.

your not taking away from anyone who is entitled to it? Just not giving that right to anyone until they are in a position to understand the ramifications?

whats your point?

The Halk · 27 Apr 2012 at 21:54

badcompany said:
your not taking away from anyone who is entitled to it? Just not giving that right to anyone until they are in a position to understand the ramifications?

whats your point?

That they already have the vote.

badcompany · 27 Apr 2012 at 21:55

TJM said:
That's how immigrant communities work. I wish the Costa del Sol could be carpet bombed, but it's unrealistic to expect people who have grown up elsewhere to abandon their language or culture, particularly when the only people who they will be able to communicate with are fellow immigrants.

I am talking about UK, couldn't care less about other countries and how people integrate.

The Halk · 27 Apr 2012 at 21:56

Muffin` said:
We don't give the right to vote to prisoners, do you think that they should? the government is currently at ends with the EU on that matter. There's more to a democracy than purely a right to vote. Constitutional law and property rights to name a few. We're far from totalitarianism.

Far from it are we? Successive governments have chipped away at the freedoms we have in the UK, piece by piece.

Personally I think prisoners _should_ have the vote, because it's dangerous to have a society where they don't. But I don't feel especially strongly about it. You could very well argue that a jury of peers led by a judge is the only way the rights of a citizen can be removed - and that's what happens.

The Halk · 27 Apr 2012 at 21:59

albert said:
If i claimed asylum or wanted to live in Somalia would i as a UK citizen be able to vote in their elections? And if so would they print out all the information in English just for me?

Quoted for despair.

TJM · 27 Apr 2012 at 22:01

badcompany said:
I am talking about UK, couldn't care less about other countries and how people integrate.

I'm talking about how immigrant communities have worked throughout history. Anyone who arrived in a town where no-one understood their language or culture would be socially and economically isolated. It isn't a matter of putting the effort in; human beings can't live like that.

Number_25 · 27 Apr 2012 at 22:02

Got a funny feeling that Ken will win this, just because of the performance of those who are in power in Westminster.

Hilarious.

The Halk · 27 Apr 2012 at 22:04

Number_25 said:
Got a funny feeling that Ken will win this, just because of the performance of those who are in power in Westminster.

Hilarious.

I've been watching the bookies odds, because I feel it's about the best way to judge it, and he's losing badly. Labour party support for him is vanishing.

I know what you mean about Westminster, and him being seen as not part of that crowd, but he's led a disastrous campaign.

Number_25 · 27 Apr 2012 at 22:08

The Halk said:
I've been watching the bookies odds, because I feel it's about the best way to judge it, and he's losing badly. Labour party support for him is vanishing.

I know what you mean about Westminster, and him being seen as not part of that crowd, but he's led a disastrous campaign.

I wasn't aware, I haven't really kept in touch with it like usual.

I do think that there's need for change in the Labour Party,

I don't particularly like Ed Miliband one bit, although the polls state otherwise and he seems to do well in PMQs.

albert · 27 Apr 2012 at 22:10

The Halk said:
Quoted for despair.

You might have to explain what you mean :confused:

badcompany · 27 Apr 2012 at 22:13

The Halk said:
Quoted for despair.

i would dispair if i was on somalia too.

badcompany · 27 Apr 2012 at 22:14

TJM said:
I'm talking about how immigrant communities have worked throughout history. Anyone who arrived in a town where no-one understood their language or culture would be socially and economically isolated. It isn't a matter of putting the effort in; human beings can't live like that.

not seeing much effort by big sections of migrants tbh.

Strife212 · 27 Apr 2012 at 22:16

When did Britain become the kind of country that tolerates voting fraud?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...d-of-country-that-tolerates-voting-fraud.html

Muffin` · 27 Apr 2012 at 22:20

The Halk said:
Far from it are we? Successive governments have chipped away at the freedoms we have in the UK, piece by piece.

There's no argument from me that our freedom's have been eroded, but to claim totalitarianism is quite a jump. Again, imo there's a fair old way to go till we reach the point of total control.

The Halk said:
Personally I think prisoners _should_ have the vote, because it's dangerous to have a society where they don't. But I don't feel especially strongly about it. You could very well argue that a jury of peers led by a judge is the only way the rights of a citizen can be removed - and that's what happens.

Prisoners haven't had the right to vote since the 19th century and our society hasn't imploded, I don't feel it impeaches their rights, they're still treated fairly imo. Having the only way to go to prison in a judge and jury along with your time in court with evidence gathered legally and chance to defend yourself would go against the claim of totalitarianism. It's not a perfect mechanism (as the two footballers case could highlight) but it's a system tried and tested to be the best mechanism for the task.

Narj · 27 Apr 2012 at 22:21

The Halk said:
Quoted for despair.

I am confused.

In all honesty, I'd say that a person who arrived 2 weeks ago, who has no command of the English language and little understanding of the culture should not be given a say in how our political system or society works.

If you disagree, then please elaborate.

semi-pro waster · 27 Apr 2012 at 22:23

albert said:
If i claimed asylum or wanted to live in Somalia would i as a UK citizen be able to vote in their elections? And if so would they print out all the information in English just for me?

I don't know. Why don't you test it out and see? Although it does somewhat worry me when people pick a place with a humanitarian crisis and no effective government as being a useful comparator for their own country. I don't really see why you'd want to compare yourself with an example of bad practice - it's a form of seeking the lowest common denominator when I'd much rather see everyone try to raise their standards.

On reading the title of the thread I was rather hoping for a bit of a discussion on the merits of the various candidates but I see that was a rather forlorn hope.

PianoBasher said:
I am confused.

In all honesty, I'd say that a person who arrived 2 weeks ago, who has no command of the English language and little understanding of the culture should not be given a say in how our political system or society works.

If you disagree, then please elaborate.

Sure. If someone has come to London, intends to live here (for the moment at least) and has managed to get themselves on the electoral register inside two weeks without speaking English then I'm fine with them being able to vote - they deserve to have a say in how they are governed as does everyone else who resides in London and is above the age of majority.

In point of fact do they not deserve extra credit for managing to get themselves onto the electoral register without speaking English and within a fortnight? And credit to the people registering them, that's far more efficient than I'd ever have expected.

albert · 27 Apr 2012 at 22:27

semi-pro waster said:
I don't know. Why don't you test it out and see? Although it does somewhat worry me when people pick a place with a humanitarian crisis and no effective government as being a useful comparator for their own country. I don't really see why you'd want to compare yourself with an example of bad practice - it's a form of seeking the lowest common denominator when I'd much rather see everyone try to raise their standards.

On reading the title of the thread I was rather hoping for a bit of a discussion on the merits of the various candidates but I see that was a rather forlorn hope.

Why don't you talk to Stephen Fry on Twitter?. You do realise this is General Discussion?