Looking for 24" - Samsung B2430H/P2450H or BenQ VW2420H/EW2420?

[crackerbear]

First off, I'll have to apologise for the long post.

I've been reading a lot of reviews and threads across many forums and sites over the past few days, but I still cannot decide on which monitor to buy.

I'm looking for a 24" monitor @ 1920 x 1080 (ideally 1920 x 1200, but I know they cost the Earth now) with preferably a non glossy screen and a budget of around £170, so screens like the Dell U2311H and any 120Hz panels are out of the question, sadly. I could stretch to a max of £200 if the monitor suggested is very very good.

My primary use will be gaming, usually fast moving fps's, but I also watch a fair amount of films. I do a little web work on the side too, but the former 2 activities far outweigh this.

From what I've seen at this price range, the ones that caught my eye are (including cheapest prices I can find):

Samsung B2430H £166.99
Samsung P2450H £172.48

BenQ EW2420 164.23
BenQ VW2420H £166.59

Some outsiders:
Samsung BX2440 £178.64
Acer G245H £179.99

I'm aware PCM2 and some others on this board have been particularly vocal about B2430H over the P2450H, but I'm not exactly sure why since both appear virtually identical to me aside from aesthetics.

The reflection off the thick bezel of the P2450H (as noted by the Prad review and several user comments either on Newegg or Amazon) slightly worries me, as seen here:



However the lack of a tiltable stand on the B2430H is also a cause for concern as I do not know how it will sit on my desk.

Both the P2450H and the B2430H are TN panels with fast response times, so they should fit the bill for gaming, but then I read up on the BenQ models with their superior colour and contrast ratios as they're VA panels with LED edge lighting.

As I understand it, BenQ EW2420 and VW2420H both use the same panels so presumably the visual quality and performance will be the same. Spec wise, the BenQ models appear to be much better than the Samsungs, bar from response time which is quoted as 8ms GTG with a rise+fall of 25ms. Several reviews do claim there are some visible defects because of this:

From TrustedReviews (on the VW2420H):

In games we found some minor overshoot on the fringes of fast moving objects, but on the whole only the most motion-sensitive people are likely to worry.

From ExpertReviews (on the VW2420H):

Watching our test videos, including a mix of 24, 25 and 30fps material, we certainly didn't notice any ghosting during fast-paced sequences. Playing Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2, we saw a tiny amount of blurring when panning, but nothing that would cause even avid gamers concern.

From PCWorld.in (on the VW2420H):

Text that scrolls by fast (as in really fast) can get hard to distinguish, as borne out by PixPerAn tests and possibly attributable to the monitor's response time of 8ms. However, there was no noticeable blur or ghosting in games and movies – it remained visually sharp, audio remained in sync while watching movies, although there was miniscule mouse lag in fast-paced FPS games.

From Beyond3D Forum, by a user called Grall (on the EW2420):

Being VA, it features better color accuracy, viewing angles and contrast than the cheap and ubiqutous TN panel type, but also slower pixel response time. Noticably slower in fact, particulary on dark colors, where noticeable smearing occurs when gaming. If this bothers you, well, then you're in a bit of a bind as TN monitors are faster but give sh.ite contrast in dark areas instead, so you're hardly any better off really!

I myself am not bothered by the smearing, I've played on much worse panels from years past than this one just fine. Also, the degree of ghosting varies a lot from game to game. A mostly bright and colorful - and very very fast-paced - title like Team Fortress 2 plays really well on this screen, I don't really notice any ghosting here. A darker game like Half-Life Ep. 2 reveals more artifacts, but it's still not an issue; the screen never becomes a mess.

These all seem fairly minor, except for Grall's review. The problem is I've never owned a LCD before so I cannot judge how sensitive I am to ghosting/lag, however I do game to what I would consider a fairly high level in first person shooters and I do tend to notice minor details.

The other thing that could be a potential problem for me is that the BenQ screens have a semi anti-glare coating, so it's in between glossy and matte. I haven't seen the screen for myself obviously so I cannot judge how reflective (i.e. annoying) it will be.

As for the outsiders; the Samsung BX2440 on paper seemed to be the "better" model of the B2430H, being LED edge lit and having a fully maneuverable stand (hence the marked up price tag), but user reviews on Newegg are not very encouraging. The Acer G245H also appears to be a very good TN panel according to this fairly comprehensive Youtube review, however the glossy screen casts some serious doubts about the screen for me.

Does anyone care to shed some light on these models and help me decide which is better?

Thanks for any help.

 

[crackerbear]

B2430H is great for gaming in my experiance. And the stand is actually tiltable.
Also a lot of the LED contrast is at overly high brightness levels that would probably be too high for general use.

Ah, I was under the impression the B2430H had a totally fixed stand. Numerous Newegg comments say it isn't tiltable, I guess they weren't trying hard enough?

 

[crackerbear]

Those reviews don't have the depth I require to make an informed judgement on the BenQ *VA panels. They don't seem to so much as mention the inevitable 'black crush' issues that these *VA may well suffer from and it seems to be largely based on the fact that the panel is something new and something different - this doesn't make it ideal for your uses.

Whilst the current available reviews are certainly lacklustre and I don't doubt your own experience, but is it a possibility that the reviews haven't mentioned the "black level crush" because there really isn't one for these particular VA + LED panels? Or just unnoticeable compared to a regular TN?

There are some shots of the grayscale can be found on this Chinese "review". I'm not sure how indicative those results are as they're certainly not conclusive.

BenQ's PR department haven't managed to give me any review samples yet so I wouldn't like to recommend them - either way the build quality of the Samsung monitors is bound to be superior. My thoughts on the EW2420 here. I can state that as fact for the B2430L vs. VW2420H as the VW2420H uses the same cassis as the V2420 with a gold coloured ring on the base instead of silver and presumably slightly more weight.

It's a shame BenQ haven't sent a sample out to you as I'd be very interested to know how it really fares, especially since (as far as I can tell) you have actually seen/tested the B2430H in person so you can actually compare the two. Everyone, including me, are just making assumptions and conjectures at these models based on either their specs or older/different models made by the same company.

Regarding the P2450H vs. B2430H http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=17567408&postcount=7. And the BX2440 is one to avoid due to the overzealous backlight - lighting from the backlight suffers particularly poor uniformity and colours appear bleached (overly high gamma).

The Samsung BX2440 and the Acer G245H were just some after thoughts I added to my original post - some models that I'd glanced over that seemed potentially good, but really I'm mainly looking between the BenQ's and the Samsung P2450H/B2430H.

I think unless there's a substantial difference between the Samsung P2450H and B2430H, I'd probably get the cheaper of the two. The same for the BenQ models. It's just currently I'm torn as to which model (between the brands) is better.

 

[crackerbear]

There seems to be some confusion about what's meant by "black crush" in the context of *VA monitors.

Ah you are indeed correct about my misunderstanding of what PCM2 meant of "black crush", I thought it was the problem where shades of grey appear black.

Thanks for your post, it was most informative and also distressing at the same time. That somewhat puts me off the BenQ's now. I guess I'll just have to wait for a proper review to arise to see if they mention the extent of the shifting.

 

[crackerbear]

I could just buy one myself I suppose. That would be a little extreme but it's not massive amounts of money for me at the moment.

Do buy one and review it, you'd save me £160 odd

Jokes aside, I may wait a little longer before buying a monitor. I was set to buy one next Monday, but the lack of decent reviews on the BenQ's have left me apprehensive.

 

[crackerbear]

I can't think of a single glossy bezel monitor where this isn't an issue, particularly Samsung ones. I tend to filter it out now anyway - doesn't really bother me.

I think it's possibly more pronounced on the P2450H because it has a slightly deeper bezel? I've not found or seen any photos around of the B2430H with the same angle to directly compare, but no user reviews have mentioned the problem.

If they are the same then my biggest worries of the Samsungs (tiltable stand and that distracting reflection) are pretty much null and void. So it'll essentially come down to the aesthetic between the Samsungs and which is cheaper, if I can decide between them of the BenQs.

At this point in time I think I'm leaning to the Samsungs, the user comments here put me off the BenQs a bit:

Playing counterstrike, the lag is somewhat noticeable compared to my old Belinea TN screen. The colours are better and reading text is slightly better, but I have to say, the jump isn't amazing. There's still a bit of sparkle/ fuzz, when reading black text on a white background, which is probably to do with the matte surface. The horizontal viewing angles aren't great either, with colours and details fading significantly at 45 degrees. I think I will save up for an IPS screen next, as I do spend a lot of time looking at computer screens.

Edit:- Though saying that, I asked an owner of BenQ EW2420 to check the black crush image and he says:

it looked fine, no blurs or colour changes near the edge.

Hmm...

 

[crackerbear]

I got a Benq V2420H for my first LCD and I was waiting on seeing trailing images and other horrendous things that I associated with LCD, but aside from needing to mess about with the colours a bit, no issues at all.

The BenQ VW2420H uses a *VA panel compared to the TN in the V2420H so there is a fair bit of difference, despite the very similar model names. I'm not sure if you were aware of this, but I thought I'd point that out.

About the viewing angles, one of TN's weakest points? Where do people sit in relation to their pc for this to become an issue? I can lean as far to the left and right as my chair will let me, I can even have a crab scuttle off to a shelf and nothing apocalyptic happens to the picture.

That's also one thing that I've never quite understood either and hence me not putting it down as feature that I need. Yes viewing angles are important, but the colours and image quality of most modern panels (whatever type) only start to degrade when you enter the extreme angles by which point you can't really see what's on display anyway. 99% of the time you're going to be sitting square on to your monitor.

The black crush phenomena in VA panels does bring about a problem though, but that's less to do with viewing angles and more about the inherent flaw of the technology itself.

 

[crackerbear]

The B2 is praised by nearly everyone, including PCM2 and I fancied seeing what a non-led LCD is like. It can be mounted, which I plan on doing at some point. The P2 looks nice and all, but they are too similar to justify the extra pennies, which are in short supply.

Currently I'm pretty much in the same stand point as you. Personally I think the P2450H looks better than the B2430H with the squared off bezel and orange LED. The blue power LED on the B2430H just seems too bright (and therefore distracting) for my liking, but as you say, it'll boil down to prices and currently the B2430H is cheaper and so would be the better buy.

I've messaged a few people from various places who own either the VW2420H or EW2420 about giving me a bit more detailed feedback on them and am still waiting for replies. However the Samsungs do have the edge so far, though mainly for their response times for me.

 

[crackerbear]

Actually from a colour accuracy point of view TN panels are terrible. The gamma curve of the monitor is viewing angle dependent - as I have said many times, this means a given colour will appear different depending on its position on the screen (even if you are sat dead infront of the monitor)

I presume this problem is going to be more pronounced with bigger monitors since you probably have to move you head a bit to view the whole screen? Either way, I think I've decided that ghosting or input lag would annoy me much more than some slightly worse colour reproduction, so I may plump for the Samsungs.

It doesn't sound as if the BenQs are quite up to the task, which is a shame as being the greedy sod that I am, I wanted the best of both worlds and still come in budget

 

[crackerbear]

This is from another forum, but I thought I'd quote it here. As far as I know, the BenQ BL2400PT uses the same *VA panel and LED backlighting as the VW2420H and EW2420. The anti-glare coating may be stronger (i.e. closer towards matte) on this panel than the other 2 models though.

My BL2400PT arrived today , manufactured in august'10. I live in Catalonia, Spain.

First impressions:
-Connected through DVI, disabled all senseeye & stuff, brightness to 0, contrast to 40.
-Apparently no dead/bad pixels.
-Coming from a 17" old TN sammy, now blacks are true blacks (it blends with the bezel, really).
-No noise (at least on 0 brightness) at all. And i have a taste for silent computing..
-Image quality is gorgeus, at least for me
-I don't have a colorimeter, and i'm not a color expert, but i can't see any tint on the images or anything wrong with colors.
-Vision angles... well, viewed from down is equally gorgeus as seeing it directly, but viewing it from above the image is... bland. I don't know if that's a drop in constrast (the colors are fine) or in gamma. Side angles are fine. All in all, perfect for my setup.
-The AG coating doesn't seem too agressive.
-Not a fast panel, as expected. Can't see any problem for work/movies, and the games that i've tested, but it fails lagom tests and you can feel it when scrolling some pages, so it must be slow.
-Sound is... well... just works, period. As expected.
-It feels very solid and heavy (but the box where it came is almost heavier )

The fact that he says it fails the lagom tests certainly isn't very encouraging for me, which is a shame because it seems to be very good everywhere else.

 

[crackerbear]

Hello fellas

I just bought the EW2420. I expect it to come in the middle of the week.
If you have specific questions or test you would like me to run, just tell me.
I don't have any digital camera, so probably it will have to be enough to describe it in words.
(There is a chance that on coming weekend I will have a camera)

Hey Lukas,

I actually already posted to you on another forum asking the same thing but I may as well repeat what I posted.

Would you mind telling me how responsive it feels when you play fast games (i.e. first person shooters)? I'd like to know if you notice any ghosting or input lag.

There's also a few online tests you can try such as these:

PixPerAn test:
http://www.prad.de/download/pixperan_english.zip

Browser based tests:
http://www.prad.de/new/monitore/testsoftware/schlieren2.html

http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/response_time.php

I'd also like how good the image quality and colour reproduction is and finally how badly it exhibits a problem known as "black crush" or gamma shifting that's inherent on monitors with VA panels.

For the black crush thing, if you would take a moment and open this image on the monitor, view it straight on at full screen and see if you can see any colour changes usually around the sides or the centre being darker (with loss of detail) compared to the rest.

Thanks for any info!

 

[crackerbear]

Just a heads up for PCM2 or anyone else looking at the BenQ EW2420, someone from another forum has bought one and is doing a semi-professional review (he actually seems to know his stuff).

His first impressions:

Monitor received, calibrating now.

Out of the box (standard) brightness is 253cd/m2 and the black level is 0.09cd/m2. Motion is good with AMA on (needs to be activated in the menu), not as good as a 2ms TN but definately an improvement over the C-PVA panels.

Just by setting the brightness to 50 in the OSD I get 124cd/m2 and a black depth of 0.04cd/m2=3100:1 contrast.

Its half AG/half glossy. There are very minor relfections in the corners from the panel cornerns itself other wise this is like the perfect screen for people who dislike both full Glossy and AG coating.

It Passes all the Lagom Tests

It fails the Prad Red Box Ghosting test though just like the C-PVA panels.
http://www.prad.de/new/monitore/testsoftware/schlieren2.html

Watched part of one movie, there was no ghosting, however the film was very dark and didnt feature any reds on grey backgrounds so we will see. The PixerPixAn Flag test is the same as a TN panel while the racer car has minor dark streaks, however it doesnt have a double image like a 5ms TN would.

Im finished calibration and have calibrated with both Eye One Match 3 and BasICColor. Contrast ratio is 3036:1 @ 121.44cdm/2

I will be making a new thread with the EW2420 Review in it, including PQ comparions to both the Acer G245H (TN) and Samusng F2380Mx (C-PVA), as well as a Youtube video Review.

That contrast ratio is impressive, slightly better than what BenQ themselves claimed. However if what he says is true, the responsiveness of the monitor doesn't seem to be quite good enough, for me at least.

 

[crackerbear]

Although I've not used a LCD monitor for gaming, I'm pretty sure I'll be quite sensitive to ghosting or lag issues since I tend to pick up on minor little things (some friends call me autistic ).

I'm particularly interested in your opinion of the BenQ monitor as you've used/tested the Samsungs first hand so should have a much better idea of how they compare to each other.

Whilst the PixerPixAn test may not be entirely representative of the real world (i.e. games) I think it's a fairly good "standard" that anyone can use and in particular, compare with other monitors.

 

[crackerbear]

I know I'm in a fortunate position with the range of different monitors I've tried. I do think it's a shame that the retail shops don't stock a proper variety of monitors so people can try them out for themselves. It would make things so much easier.

I did phone around last week looking for high street stores that actually had any models in store, on display that I could physically see and test but I pretty much came out empty handed.

One store did sell the B2340H, but according to the assistant on the phone, I wasn't allowed to "run tests" on it, only look - which is a bit useless if I want to test for input lag. I guess he was afraid I might break it or something.

 

[crackerbear]

...with all the protective wrapping around the bezel like somebody with OCD.

Haha I always leave that stuff on, for a least a few days as I'm scared of getting my shiny new toy dirty Hmm maybe I have OCD...

HardForum right?

Yeah, but he's not written one up yet. I expect he's going to write the review and make the Youtube video review, then post the whole lot so may be a few days yet.