Major U.S. airlines warn 5G could ground some planes !

tracertong · 18 Jan 2022 at 11:19

WASHINGTON, Jan 17 (Reuters) - The chief executives of major U.S. passenger and cargo carriers on Monday warned of an impending "catastrophic" aviation crisis in less than 36 hours, when AT&T and Verizon are set to deploy new 5G service.

The airlines warned the new C-Band 5G service set to begin on Wednesday could render a significant number of widebody aircraft unusable, "could potentially strand tens of thousands of Americans overseas" and cause "chaos" for U.S. flights.

"Unless our major hubs are cleared to fly, the vast majority of the traveling and shipping public will essentially be grounded," wrote the chief executives of American Airlines , Delta Air Lines , United Airlines , Southwest Airlines and others in a letter first reported by Reuters.

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has warned that potential interference could affect sensitive airplane instruments such as altimeters and significantly hamper low-visibility operations.

https://www.reuters.com/technology/...tion-avoid-catastrophic-5g-flight-2022-01-17/

cjgardens · 18 Jan 2022 at 12:07

Surely they would just switch to another band? What does every other country/airline do?

JonRGV250 · 18 Jan 2022 at 12:14

First, 5G gives everyone Covid, and now it’s grounding planes!
Scandalous.
We must scrap it!

Goksly · 18 Jan 2022 at 12:38

cjgardens said:
Surely they would just switch to another band? What does every other country/airline do?

That was my first hurdle; we have 5G in the UK... are there just not any masts near airports or are we using a different band?

ianh · 18 Jan 2022 at 12:41

Just some technical info - 5G's C-Band (3-4Ghz) is close to the frequency used by some aircraft Radar Altimeters which tell you your exact height above the ground directly below you.

C-Band is what allows 5G to travel a further distance, due to its lower frequency, at the cost of a slower data rate. 5G usually operates around 24Ghz which gives a great data rate but very low range.

So the C-Band frequency range was "sold" to the mobile Internet companies to be used for their long range 5G without any consultation with other users of close by frequency ranges which could face interference.

This is a world wide issue however the specific US problem is that US 5G C-Band is broadcast at much higher power levels than anywhere else in the world, hence the FAA complaining and the rest of the world (ICAO, EASA etc) is aware but less concerned.

touch · 18 Jan 2022 at 12:41

Goksly said:
That was my first hurdle; we have 5G in the UK... are there just not any masts near airports or are we using a different band?

We are regulated by CAA rules whereas America is FAA.
https://www.techradar.com/uk/news/uk-aviation-authority-has-no-concerns-about-c-band-5g

MagicBoy · 18 Jan 2022 at 12:46

Goksly said:
That was my first hurdle; we have 5G in the UK... are there just not any masts near airports or are we using a different band?

CAA (UK) say it's fine. It's only the FAA (US) getting agitated about it.

Wonder if the US operators are running it at high power rates?

MagicBoy · 18 Jan 2022 at 12:49

Terminal_Boy · 18 Jan 2022 at 12:56

How come using the neighbouring 3300-3600 MHz and 3550-3700 MHz bands used globally for LTE (4G) didn’t cause this issue?

Raymond Lin · 18 Jan 2022 at 13:04

Here is an idea....only 4G near the airport.

A bit like the no fly zone for drones.

Terminal_Boy · 18 Jan 2022 at 13:07

MagicBoy said:
CAA (UK) say it's fine. It's only the FAA (US) getting agitated about it.

Wonder if the US operators are running it at high power rates?

The US operators can’t just turn the volume up to 11 as their maximum EIRP is limited as per their FCC license conditions.

It’s entirely possible that the ageing avionics on the USA’s older passenger aircraft fleets don’t have sufficient RF filtering/screening to protect them from interference from other systems.

ianh · 18 Jan 2022 at 15:42

Terminal_Boy said:
The US operators can’t just turn the volume up to 11 as their maximum EIRP is limited as per their FCC license conditions.

ianh said:
This is a world wide issue however the specific US problem is that US 5G C-Band is broadcast at much higher power levels than anywhere else in the world, hence the FAA complaining and the rest of the world (ICAO, EASA etc) is aware but less concerned.

Info taken from the EASA SIB on the matter.

"EASA acknowledges the FAA’s assessment of the increased risk specific to the U.S.A. due to the implementation of potentially higher 5G ground stations power emissions in early 2022"

Terminal_Boy · 18 Jan 2022 at 16:07

Ah, never change Yanks…

Feek · 18 Jan 2022 at 16:09

Absolute garbage, 5G is 4.2GHz to 4.4GHz, the radar is above 4.4GHz. They're separate, 5G won't accidentally stray outside its frequencies.

ianh said:
This is a world wide issue however the specific US problem is that US 5G C-Band is broadcast at much higher power levels than anywhere else in the world, hence the FAA complaining and the rest of the world (ICAO, EASA etc) is aware but less concerned.

It's more about the relative closeness of the frequency than the power. Other countries don't use that 4.2-4.4GHz segment.

Terminal_Boy · 18 Jan 2022 at 16:14

With my telecoms pedant’s hat on, 5G can operate on any and all of the frequencies bands used by old 2G, 3G and 4G technologies as well as the new millimetric bands (which are the only 5G exclusive bands).

tracertong · 18 Jan 2022 at 16:20

Over to you Joe.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/01/17/tech/faa-5g-flight-restrictions/index.html

ianh · 18 Jan 2022 at 17:14

Feek said:
Absolute garbage, 5G is 4.2GHz to 4.4GHz, the radar is above 4.4GHz. They're separate, 5G won't accidentally stray outside its frequencies.

It's more about the relative closeness of the frequency than the power. Other countries don't use that 4.2-4.4GHz segment.

I would suggest that the FAA, CAA, ICAO, EASA etc all know more on this subject than either of us do. So whether it's due to sidelobe scatter, sub-channel interference or whatever else all the worlds aviation authorities come up with, I tend to side with them.

dacads · 18 Jan 2022 at 18:06

ianh said:
This is a world wide issue however the specific US problem is that US 5G C-Band is broadcast at much higher power levels than anywhere else in the world, hence the FAA complaining and the rest of the world (ICAO, EASA etc) is aware but less concerned.

ah, that would explain all the brain dead or brainwashed people then

firstborn · 18 Jan 2022 at 18:15

Terminal_Boy said:
With my telecoms pedant’s hat on, 5G can operate on any and all of the frequencies bands used by old 2G, 3G and 4G technologies as well as the new millimetric bands (which are the only 5G exclusive bands).

and 5G is actually allocated to a wide range of bands - some of which do overlap with the radar based gizmos. Whether they actually cause interference is another matter...

Minusorange · 18 Jan 2022 at 19:22

What's the problem ? Just make them turn their phones off like they've made us do since 1g

theone8181 · 18 Jan 2022 at 20:19

Feek said:
Absolute garbage, 5G is 4.2GHz to 4.4GHz, the radar is above 4.4GHz. They're separate, 5G won't accidentally stray outside its frequencies.

It's more about the relative closeness of the frequency than the power. Other countries don't use that 4.2-4.4GHz segment.

What about harmonics? Also (and this is going to sound stupid), why not just have no phone service, but have WiFi instead? Sorry I've not been on a plane for 10 years :eek:

so not sure what's current, have they stopped using propellers now :cry:

.