Making the change! What tool though? I want a Macbook!

[agnes]

Afternoon all, I've finally decided I'd like to change career into programming. It's been on my mind for a while and now my girlfriend has given me the last nudge to make the plunge. She's a software dev so is able to give me damn good guidance on what to do and where to go to kick start my studies.

But, this post isn't about that, yet...

I've been after a mac laptop for years but never had justification for it! My gf has a Macbook Air 2012, she loves it. Uses it for all her home programming projects and also uses it at work. He work have supplied her with a lovely mac at her work as well. And now she wants to get the new Macbook 2015 12" one.

I've been doing a little research and it's damn impressive, but, a little underpowered...

What's my best option for a Mac? I mainly need it for use on the sofa or trains as I commute into London and I don't want to be sat at my desk studying every evening. I'd much rather relax with some wine and study on the sofa.

Is the Macbook Pro OTT for what I want? I imagine I'll be doing mostly Python to start with.

I thought about the Macbook Air but it's not much better in performance than the new Macbook...

So yea, thoughts?

 

[mid_gen]

I've had a Macbook Pro 13" and a wide range of Thinkpads. There's no doubting the Macbook Pro is a nice bit of kit, but it's not actually very good at being a laptop. The metal chassis is used to radiate heat away and they quickly become very uncomfortable to have actually sat on your lap if you're pushing the CPU/GPU.

I've just bought a new laptop because I wanted something for getting work done on the sofa when I don't want to be sat in the study, and ended up getting another Thinkpad. Thermal vents are on the side instead of being hidden in the hinge so even when I'm cranking out stuff in UE4/Unity thrashing the CPU and GPU it stays nice and comfortable and cool on my lap.

The missus has a 2014 Macbook Air that I use occasionally and it never gets uncomfortably warm. So....my advice if it's for using on your lap, get the lower powered Air over the MBP. It's a lovely bit of hardware too.

You know all the other pros/cons of Macs....but thought I'd leave this practical nugget of advice, save you boiling your knackers

 

[agnes]

I've had a Macbook Pro 13" and a wide range of Thinkpads. There's no doubting the Macbook Pro is a nice bit of kit, but it's not actually very good at being a laptop. The metal chassis is used to radiate heat away and they quickly become very uncomfortable to have actually sat on your lap if you're pushing the CPU/GPU.

I've just bought a new laptop because I wanted something for getting work done on the sofa when I don't want to be sat in the study, and ended up getting another Thinkpad. Thermal vents are on the side instead of being hidden in the hinge so even when I'm cranking out stuff in UE4/Unity thrashing the CPU and GPU it stays nice and comfortable and cool on my lap.

The missus has a 2014 Macbook Air that I use occasionally and it never gets uncomfortably warm. So....my advice if it's for using on your lap, get the lower powered Air over the MBP. It's a lovely bit of hardware too.

You know all the other pros/cons of Macs....but thought I'd leave this practical nugget of advice, save you boiling your knackers

Good little note, I'll be mostly using a pillow to rest it on or a little coffee table. Or yea, my thighs... I'm heading to the apple store in reading this weekend to throw my money at them, so I'll try them out, including the new macbook.

 

[mid_gen]

You need to a be a little careful what you rest it on....the MBP vents are hidden in the hinge, (take a look when you're at the store). If you are sitting the MBP on top of a duvet or something, it will block the vents and then warm up pretty fast.

 

[peterwalkley]

I'm going to be a contrarian and point out that coding on any laptop is just awful.

You want:
- the biggest screen, or pair/triple of screens you can get for your budget.
- decent keyboard. I need full-size - can't cope with those poky little laptop things.
- SSD beats processor and memory for builds in terms of productivity.

Coding on the move is uncomfortable, noisy, usually bad lighting and far too many distractions.

Read Joel On Software - specifically rule 8.

 

[Noxia]

Fair play to you for taking the plunge. The only aspect of programming that interested me as gamedev and my maths skills aren't up to scratch. No way will I be able to learn math basically from scratch and game programming as well. From what I read it's not a very nice field to be in really and I wouldn't fancy doing it professionally even i I could.
It's a shame as I always felt I could get into it but I soon realised how hard it was even using tools like Unity.
I personally thing the Dell XPS range is a fantastic alternative to the pricey Apple stuff. I had a MBP and it was awful to use as an actual laptop as it would get unbearably hot.

 

[DanF]

I have a 2012 13" Air speced with base cpu, 8gb ram and 256gb ssd. It has more than enough power for python programming if it's fairly simple stuff and smaller sites. I've even done a few small games on it using pygame with no issues. I think you'd need to be opening up a fairly big codebase before it became slow or annoying.

As peterwalkley said, dual monitors and a proper keyboard/mouse is much better for programming but you can always doc the air/mbp when you are at home or work.

Air vs MBP, if you can afford the rMBP in the correct spec then do it, you get a faster cpu and a much nicer screen. It's about £120 more for a 8gb/256gb ssd spec. The Air is a bit lighter and slightly better battery life but that's about it. Or you could look at 2nd hand from say the amazon market place, there's one there for £675 with the marketplace protection.

I wouldn't consider the new 12" macbook if you are looking to do regular programming on it.

 

[GravyMonster]

I'm going to be a contrarian and point out that coding on any laptop is just awful.

You want:
- the biggest screen, or pair/triple of screens you can get for your budget.
- decent keyboard. I need full-size - can't cope with those poky little laptop things.
- SSD beats processor and memory for builds in terms of productivity.

Coding on the move is uncomfortable, noisy, usually bad lighting and far too many distractions.

Read Joel On Software - specifically rule 8.

Agree with everything here.

Nothing beats a desktop with as many monitors as you can connect to it and a mechanical keyboard.

 

[radderfire]

I have a Microsoft Surface Pro 3, with the dock, and I use it with 2 external monitors and an external keyboard and mouse. It is a great setup, because you can easily take it out the dock to use in tablet mode. You can also attach a Surface keyboard for use as a laptop, but I don't have that.

The only issue I have is that the Surface Pro 3 display, though excellent, is a little difficult to read at its optimum resolution, but that's more my eyes at issue.

The pen experience is excellent.

I suggest you check one out, it's probably cheaper than the Mac and just as good. It is likely to get even better with Windows 10.

Rgds

 

[agnes]

Thanks for the suggestions guys! Typically I got too excited and picked up a rMBP 15". As for desktop, I've got a lovely Corsair K70 mechanical kb but I want a lippy as a viable alternative for when I attend classes which I fully intend to.

So, tool bought. Now time to research around in order to sign up for some late night classes starting in September! As I'll also be doing open uni, if not for the training, for the vital degree at the end of it. Long road ahead. But the goal posts have been set. Now I need to get there. Might take a few years to even get into a junior role and I doubt I'll have a degree within 6 years. But, life goes on and no point sitting around waiting for it to pass.

 

[mid_gen]

Fair play to you for taking the plunge. The only aspect of programming that interested me as gamedev and my maths skills aren't up to scratch. No way will I be able to learn math basically from scratch and game programming as well. From what I read it's not a very nice field to be in really and I wouldn't fancy doing it professionally even i I could.
It's a shame as I always felt I could get into it but I soon realised how hard it was even using tools like Unity.

I wouldn't be put off, it's a great field to work in. There are horror stories from crap employers like EA that try and work people to death, but largely it's a fun, rewarding, and interesting place to work.

How much maths, and what kind of maths you need depends on what sort of programming you're doing. If you are interested in it, there's some great free stuff around, coursera has some good algorithm design units.

 

[mid_gen]

I'm going to be a contrarian and point out that coding on any laptop is just awful.

You want:
- the biggest screen, or pair/triple of screens you can get for your budget.
- decent keyboard. I need full-size - can't cope with those poky little laptop things.
- SSD beats processor and memory for builds in terms of productivity.

Coding on the move is uncomfortable, noisy, usually bad lighting and far too many distractions.

Read Joel On Software - specifically rule 8.

Au contraire, you don't have to compromise with a laptop..I picked up a Lenovo E540 refurb for 500 EUR.

Awesome keyboard. I have been happily ploughing through work in Unity from the comfort of my sofa in the evenings. When I have time for a proper session in the office it's nice having the 3 displays and all that....but in reality doesn't make a huge amount of difference to productivity.

 

[Neodite]

What will you be coding in to want to use OSX? Take it is to code for iOS?

 

[DanF]

No need for years of study and a degree if you just want to break in to a web programming job. Lots of companies will take you on in a junior position if you have learnt the basics, maybe have some demos and just have the right aptitude.

We've taken on very junior people before in to web dev roles and trained them on the job. They have gone on to be good devs.

 

[agnes]

No need for years of study and a degree if you just want to break in to a web programming job. Lots of companies will take you on in a junior position if you have learnt the basics, maybe have some demos and just have the right aptitude.

We've taken on very junior people before in to web dev roles and trained them on the job. They have gone on to be good devs.

What's the average age though? I'm 27, with 10 years behind me working in IT support, 1st, 2nd and 3rd line, front and back end lol. Jack of all trades basically.

 

[radderfire]

No need for years of study and a degree if you just want to break in to a web programming job. Lots of companies will take you on in a junior position if you have learnt the basics, maybe have some demos and just have the right aptitude.

We've taken on very junior people before in to web dev roles and trained them on the job. They have gone on to be good devs.

+1

 

[radderfire]

To succeed in programming, you need a little bit of talent, a lot of enthusiasm and a bit of focus on the right skills. It's good you're doing a degree but don't think you can't teach yourself everything and get a job a lot sooner than six years away. Don't let a degree course slow you down.

 

[davetherave2]

What's the average age though? I'm 27, with 10 years behind me working in IT support, 1st, 2nd and 3rd line, front and back end lol. Jack of all trades basically.

Never under estimate the power of experience.

I made a similar transition a while ago from support into development and have never looked back. Also being a jack of all trades helps in some ways.

I personally found that I could pick up some languages easier than others but ultimately having that "broad" skill set and jack of all trades mentality has helped me to become a better developer. I'm not professing to be the best but I am certainly better than average and can pick up new skills/ concepts pretty quickly.

I have learnt everything that I know on the job and luckily working with some talented people has helped me become a better developer (especially over the last 18 months)

Having those support skills I think are invaluable as it gives you a different dimension when you are developing as you can see it from the pure code side but also from the support side which gives you an appreciation of what users are going to experience when they use your code.

When we have looked for new "junior" developers language knowledge helps but we look more for a person that is enthusiastic, passionate and is able to gel well with the team over language specific skills.

Personally if you have to go laptop then I would get a "desktop replacement" type unit as you will get frustrated with a tiny screen after a while.

I've tried doing development on a laptop several times and at points I just want to kill myself as I am so used to doing my coding in a multi-monitor environment which makes things so much easier.

 

[DanF]

What's the average age though? I'm 27, with 10 years behind me working in IT support, 1st, 2nd and 3rd line, front and back end lol. Jack of all trades basically.

Yeah I started to train for programming when I was 26, picked up my first job at 27 and have been there since (erm a few years )

To get in I did some MCPs towards getting an MCSD then just made up a website in .net and turned up with a full printout of the DB I'd designed to back the system (was before github etc where going). They where impressed I'd done all this in my own time and took me on.

Nowadays I'd recommend making up a StackOverflow account, start by asking programming and framework questions then start to answer some when you have more knowledge. Then set up a github account and just get playing with some of the code on there once you have some basic knowledge.

Do some demo sites, simplish stuff like std n-tier web app with DB backing and some JS for the front end. Then host it on github so you can include it in any job apps.

It'll take a few months to learn all this stuff. Start by learning the proper OO principals if you are going to learn python, java or .net. Once you are comfy with making up basic projects and console apps then move on to web dev. Webdev usually ends up using a lot of pre-built code libraries so it's beneficial to have a good grounding in the programming language before doing it.

Another fun way to learn programming is to make up some simple games, like make a breakout or pong clone. Python has pygame which is pretty good, the installer for running on os x is a bit more tricky than using it on windows though (can always just spin up a windows VM).

edit 1
Oh try and do the http://www.codecademy.com/learn python course first. It's pretty decent. You can also purchase https://www.jetbrains.com/pycharm/ as it's one of the best python IDE's, personal license is pretty cheap if you plan to get a job of the back of it.

edit 2

There's currently a programming drought in the SE, London to the M4 corridor so it's a good job to get in to. Check out some of the salaries you can work towards.

python
http://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/default.aspx?page=1&sortby=0&orderby=0&q=python&id=0&lid=2108
http://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/default.aspx?page=1&sortby=0&orderby=0&q=Python&id=0&lid=1853

.net
http://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/default.aspx?page=1&sortby=0&orderby=0&q=.net&id=0&lid=1853

If you learn python then jumping to .net later on would be pretty easy.

 

[agnes]

Wowww, plethora of information, I'm mobbed at work but thanks guys! I'll dive in later, I quickly skimmed over and both of you have made me feel even more driven haha.

So, this week I've ordered the rMBP 15" (base spec, I've got a gaming PC so don't need the dedicated GPU...).

I've also buried my nose in a couple of books, my brains starting to hurt but I had sort of a 'lightbulb' moment last night. Hard to explain, but yea, I had been looking through a straw at what I was learning but when I suddenly had a click, I was able to see how things fit together. I've not really put much into practice yet as I'm just absorbing books like no other.

I'm going to get stuck in this weekend with a stupid, real stupid project I thought about this morning, sort of my first project to put what basics I'm learning into practice rather than rely on "do this, then that" steps from books.

In short, I will start with being able to enter what fruit I have, and how many of that particular fruit. Then run a little 'report' which prints out the fruit and how many I have of those. If this works well, I'll then add on a random generator (my gf who's a dev said it's a choice selector thing, I don't know, I'll come to it when I get there), basically, I want to say "Suggestion?" and then it will say, "Have a banana". But also amend the amount of bananas I have, so when I run a report, I will be less 1 banana.

It's entirely stupid and ott, but I think it will get me understanding the basics pretty quickly.

I am damn excited! I'm loving this, feel like I'm a kid learning how to ride a bike haha. Really hard to explain. It's just fun!

Wooooooooooo