minimum working temperature?

vincent1989

vincent1989

vincent1989

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3 Oct 2006
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Ok, I'm not a wuss (the cold doesn't normally bother me, I've been out in shorts and tee in the snow in previous years, windows open 365 days a year unless receiving death threats from family members etc) but after finishing a ten hours shift with goose bumps and numb feet I'm getting pretty angry and the rest of the shift is in agreement with me; it's to ****ing cold!

The heating either doesn't work properly or they're only switching it on for certain areas (management offices) or certain times of day and the nightshift are being left without heating whatsoever, added to this we have no access to the stock room so can't grab extra gloves/hats/scarves/jumpers as we see fit and it's like getting blood from a stone trying to get personnel to leave the keys for the nightshift manager.

Now I've done a little research and found that there is (or was) a minimum working temperature (16 or 13 degrees depending on indoor environment) BUT the union have said that the government changed the act to 'a temperature agreed upon by the workplace and the union. Going to Usdaws website and searching around leads me to the same government document aforementioned and from what i can see from the HSE.gov.uk website the same applies (16 or 13 depending on conditions).

So, what do I do now? My workplace is already in breach of the regulations by not providing adequate provision for staff to check the temperature (no thermometers in the building what so ever) which I have informed them about and from what I can find out we're being misinformed about the minimum temperature (or according to them; the lack of one).

I'm planning to take my thermometer in tomorrow night and take a reading and record it (along with readings from the following two nights) but I'm not prepared to spend all that time in what was an icebox without the aid of -4 nights and 6 inches of snow, neither can I afford to not go in.

what i really want to know is are we being fed disinformation regarding the temperature to keep us quiet or not?

In before 'put a jumper on', most of the nightshift (including myself) are already wearing an extra shirt and socks as well as jumpers and hoodies that we'd not normally wear.
 
D'oh >.<

Sorry it's late! Speak to HR maybe (if it wasn't them you spoke to)? If not then I'm not sure, the website says escalation plan is:

Employer --> Union --> HSE themselves. Any better help?

- Pea0n
 
There is no minimum working temperature in this country/europe.

In EU law there is a maximum, no minimum. Nothing else legally makes a difference (UK law etc)

I know from fighting my employer, the government (SRM really), about this very issue. We didn't get far. (this was for offices, and transit sheds/examination sheds)

/thread
 
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Pea0n said:
D'oh >.<

Sorry it's late! Speak to HR maybe? If not then I'm not sure, the website says escalation plan is:

Employer --> Union --> HSE themselves. Any better help?

- Pea0n
Click to expand...

The thing is being on nights we either come in in our own time to talk to HR or forget about it and as most of us work a full time week and then have family and other commitments talking to HR (something dire at the best of times let alone in this sort of situation) usually gets pushed to the side. The only other way to communicate with them is through our line manager who is useless at best.

A member of staff has phoned the union and apparently the union have said there is no minimum, which as I've explained does not tally with the government or the union website.

I think I'm just going to go in, let my colleagues know all this and see what they think and go from there but it really is infuriating me that, from what i can tell, we are being fed lies and then not being supported in the cold by our management to boot
 
Are you sure the HSE information is not just GUIDELINES?

Unless you can quote an act or law that the HSE mentions along with the 16c?

We heard the 16c thing, and found it out to be almost completely devoid of any practical use. Ie you cannot hold anyone to account over it. Or there was a reason on the 'official side' that would completely trump with HSE thing.

If you think about it it makes sense, we have hot and cold countries all within the EU. Sense to a point...
 
Biohazard said:
There is no minimum working temperature in this country/europe.

In EU law there is a maximum, no minimum. Nothing else legally makes a difference (UK law etc)

I know from fighting my employer, the government, about this very issue. We didn't get far. (this was for offices, and transit sheds/examination sheds)

/thread
Click to expand...

have you a link to the EU stance, i've looked at the english EU web portal but it seems to have been deliberately designed to be difficult :D

Reginald said:
Do u know what the temp is in there?
Click to expand...

no, not yet, pretty cold though, every member of staff is complaining (bar the management!) about it, the checkout staff have blue fingers and like i say, it's coled enough for my toes to be numb in a pretty active environment.
 
Its ridiculous if there is no minimum...

I can understand it not applying to sheds, etc. if its mostly what would be classified outdoor work i.e. big open bay doors.
 
vincent1989 said:
have you a link to the EU stance, i've looked at the english EU web portal but it seems to have been deliberately designed to be difficult :D



no, not yet, pretty cold though, every member of staff is complaining (bar the management!) about it, the checkout staff have blue fingers and like i say, it's coled enough for my toes to be numb in a pretty active environment.
Click to expand...

No, I'll see if I can find it (unlikely not at work).

I know there is a max, no minimum. Its completely at our works managerial discretion.
 
Biohazard said:
Are you sure the HSE information is not just GUIDELINES?

Unless you can quote an act or law that the HSE mentions along with the 16c?

We heard the 16c thing, and found it out to be almost completely devoid of any practical use. Ie you cannot hold anyone to account over it. Or there was a reason on the 'official side' that would completely trump with HSE thing.

If you think about it it makes sense, we have hot and cold countries all within the EU. Sense to a point...
Click to expand...

it's from 'The Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992'. i completely agree with you, like i say, i wouldn't normally complain, it's just that it is too cold and we've been given no support on the issue.
 
Rroff said:
Its ridiculous if there is no minimum...

I can understand it not applying to sheds, etc. if its mostly what would be classified outdoor work i.e. big open bay doors.
Click to expand...
Why is it ridiculous? If people working outdoors/semi-outdoors can be expected to work in cold conditions then why should people indoors not be expected to do the same?
 
jp_bl_68 said:
Why is it ridiculous? If people working outdoors/semi-outdoors can be expected to work in cold conditions then why should people indoors not be expected to do the same?
Click to expand...

one would assume there are additional provisions in the contract for those people who don't work indoors as well as additional pay?
 
Because when outdoors your active for a start and generally people who are working in those kinda conditions, sheds/outdoors, etc. are that type that don't mind the cold.

Someone sitting in an office all day should not be exposed to sub 14-15C.
 
vincent1989 said:
it's from 'The Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992'. i completely agree with you, like i say, i wouldn't normally complain, it's just that it is too cold and we've been given no support on the issue.
Click to expand...

I will need to look out for something, but I am 99% sure of this.

it falls over with grey area wording such as:

"Maintenance of a "reasonable" temperature indoors and the provision of thermometers (reg.7);"

Reasonable can mean anything to anyone, and this is why it falls over iirc.

if its not that, its because the regulation is superceded by other EU law. although I remember it coming down to a very grey area (:rolleyes:), which makes me think the wording makes it fail.

I will try to find out but I'm not going to research this from home when I can ask someone at work.

I will come back though, if someone hasn't answered it with 100% certainty.
 
vincent1989 said:
one would assume there are additional provisions in the contract for those people who don't work indoors as well as additional pay?
Click to expand...
I wouldn't make that assumption. Perhaps some outdoor workers are compensated for the fact they have to work in the cold but I don't think there's any guarantee.
 
Biohazard said:
I will need to look out for something, but I am 99% sure of this.

it falls over with grey area wording such as:

"Maintenance of a "reasonable" temperature indoors and the provision of thermometers (reg.7);"

Reasonable can mean anything to anyone, and this is why it falls over iirc.

if its not that, its because the regulation is superceded by other EU law. although I remember it coming down to a very grey area (:rolleyes:), which makes me think the wording makes it fail.

I will try to find out but I'm not going to research this from home when I can ask someone at work.

I will come back though, if someone hasn't answered it with 100% certainty.
Click to expand...

i figured if it had been superseded by EU law then the EU law would be what is contained within the government website, being as the EU basically decides the majority of our laws now :p

this is a direct copy/paste from HSE:

' 4. /minimum temperature in the workplace?

What is the maximum/minimum temperature in the workplace?

The Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992 lay down particular requirements for most aspects of the working environment

Regulation 7 of these Regulations deals specifically with the temperature in indoor workplaces and states that:

During working hours, the temperature in all workplaces inside buildings shall be reasonable.

However, the application of the regulation depends on the nature of the workplace i.e. a bakery, a cold store, an office, a warehouse.

The associated ACOP goes on to explain:

‘The temperature in workrooms should provide reasonable comfort without the need for special clothing. Where such a temperature is impractical because of hot or cold processes, all reasonable steps should be taken to achieve a temperature which is as close as possible to comfortable. 'Workroom' means a room where people normally work for more than short periods.

The temperature in workrooms should normally be at least 16 degrees Celsius unless much of the work involves severe physical effort in which case the temperature should be at least 13 degrees Celsius. These temperatures may not, however, ensure reasonable comfort, depending on other factors such as air movement and relative humidity.’
'

Am I to understand that the ACOP (approved code of practise) is basically worthless and 'reasonable' must thus be defined by an agreement between the employer and the union (if so how do staff ever have a leg to stand on if the union and employer never come to an agreement (which seems to be the case in this instance)).

If so that is utterly crap.


if the law has been changed/superseded it must have been relatively recently, there are BBC articles (along with many others on the internet) from 2007 during the heatwave that tells of a legal minimum (16/13 as mentioned) but no legal maximum.
 
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