MTB hardtail frames - 'hardcore XC'

[glitch]

Having sold my old bike to a colleague, I'm in the market for a replacement. And this time I figure I'm going to start from the frame up and go from there. I've got a rough idea of what components I need, but slight variations will no doubt come into play when I finally settle on a frame/fork combination.

I've got a budget of around £1k for the whole bike, so I'm looking at no more than £350 for the frame. I'm still undecided as to whether I want a steel or aluminium frame, although I'm leaning towards the livelier feeling of the former, having started out many moons ago with a steel Kona. I'll be aiming for a bike that will handle a mixture of singletrack and general trail riding, and I'll want something that can be built to be relatively light and nimble, but still handle the downs without too much difficulty.

I read and hear great things about the Pace RC303 and how wonderfully suited it is to English singletrack, but I'm not paying £500 for a frame so that's out of the question already. But I figure that anything with similar geometry would be a good place to start, and have seen some frames that look quite good.

So far I've come up with:

Charge Duster @ £350



Cove Handjob @ £330



Maxlight Pha5e @ £350



On-One Inbred 456 @ £150



On-One Scandal @ £250



Not knowing much (if anything) about what's out there, have I missed anything obvious or is there already a stand-out frame from amongst those few above? Or can you recommend something else to add to my research pile?

 

[glitch]

2007 Specialized Hardrock Sport FRAME ONLY

Not quite what I'm looking for, but thanks for popping by.

I know the cove handjob has received a lot of positive reviews.

Which is what is leading me to put it at #1 spot so far. Certainly looks the part, has virtually the same geometry as the Stiffee, and is on budget.

Charge duster looks like quite a good option. I like the fact they've got "A bicycle company" written on the frame, what's it there for? To cover up that Charge are actually an iraqi militant faction?

Heh, I was wondering that myself. I like the look of the Charge, but it seems a bit weedy compared to the Cove. Although, having said that, I've seen a Duster running Pike's and some pretty hardcore kit, so there's obviously some strength in those Tange Prestige tubes.

Of course you will have to cycle about with Handjob written on your frame...

Might divert attention from the plank riding it then!

 

[glitch]

Surely any of the steel frames I've listed above have both the strength and the geometry to accept suspension forks?

 

[glitch]

You can't argue with the value of the 456. Bang on a pair of Rev's or Pikes and off you go.

Agreed about the price, not sure about the colour. If there was ever a colour I hate, it's red.

Wouldn't Pike's be a bit burly for the 456 though?

Couple of alternatives - Merlin special build Commencal Nuts for £850. Looks like top value with full XT.

Loveoly spec, shame about the size. Should probably have mentioned my height (I'm 6'1" with 33" inside leg) in the OP.

Pipedream Sirius - steel frame for £199. I love mine

Mmmm, interesting. Might add that one to the shortlist.

Not quite sure what the poster means by steel not being the best choice with suspension forks.

That's what I was thinking too. Hopefully he'll come back to explain his musings.

 

[glitch]

I'm certainly not the best person to answer your question in full, but I can have a game stab at answering it in brief.

I don't see any compromise at all in choosing one material over the other. It's all down to the tubing used and the design of the frame as to how much of said material is used and how heavy the frame actually is. Steel is generally seen as a more supple, responsive ride and aluminium as a harsher but more direct ride. Although that's really generalising things and someone will no doubt be able to expand on that for you.

Difficult to say what a whole bike with XT spec would be as you've got to factor in the weight of the frame, forks and other accessories, but you could be looking at anything from 26 to 30lbs depending on your choices. I'd certainly expect to spec a bike at around the 28lbs mark for around £1k and then shave off a pound or two for every few hundred quid over the mark.

Speaking of forks, I'm really liking the reviews and the general specification of the Pike's. Looks like the 454 Dual Air are the best, and I'd imagine the 2007 models are available to be had for a small discount over the '08 models. I assume that they can also be locked out with the Poploc accessory?

 

[glitch]

Have you seen the Cotic Soul? I know someone that canes it on his, and it's done him well. I seem to recall they were doing XT builds for around a grand but I may be mistaken.

al

Not heard of it before your recommendation, but just checked it out and I'm not immediately taken with the geometry or pricing. One for the maybe pile.

i was in the same situation as you few months back, looked at all the frames you listed above plus the cotic soul, and eventually wittled it down to the Scandla and soul but the soul is always out of stock and pricey so i went with the scandal and i wont regret it! its awesome and super light!

I do really like the look and geometry of the scandal, and the frame material sounds really interesting.

Lovely bike you have there too. What's the spec?

How about the Kona Kula Primo 2007? £349.99 at Evans.

Light, stiff, not built for massive hits but will be a solid all arounder.

A possible, but not really grabbing my attention. Horrible colour too. Or maybe that's just me!

I had Stiffee on mine, which would have been a suggestion but for the price

Thought about the Stiffee but that price is rather high. And I could get a Pace RC305 for around the same... and then I'm starting to spend money I don't have!

Gotta be a 456, simply awesome frames. Pikes or revs on the front and it'll ride anything, nippy singletrack to big **** off drops.

On one make the best bang for buck frames IMHO.

I am definitely leaning towards something from On-One, especially at their prices, but I'm really put off with the colour of the 456. And once you factor in the price of a colour change, plus reaming and facing, it's getting to be a tad expensive.

 

[glitch]

Went to the LBS today for a mooch around and got the chance to see the Handjob and Stiffee frames up close, albeit on a rack and not as a built bike. Both looked the part and certainly seemed to be nicely shaped, but without them being built up and rideable it's impossible to tell.

Was directed to the Orange P7 as apparently it was the closest in terms of geometry of built bike they had in store, and initial impressions seemed good. So much so that I've now added the P7 Pro to my list of possible bikes as the spec seems almost exactly what I'd choose myself, bar the Fox forks.

Also got my hands on a set of Pike 454 Air U-Turn forks and was amazed at how light they were compared to some of the other less 'beefy' forks in the shop.

 

[glitch]

its an alright spec, i was on similar budget to yourself, so was very fussy where i was spending the money so i got best bits in the right places.

Fox Vanilla forks RLC

Apologies for dredging this thread up, but I'm hoping either ichabod or another kind soul will be able to help me.

I've tried the Fox site, I've tried various retailers but I simply cannot find any measurements for the Fox Vanilla forks. Basically I want to know the axle > crown measurement.

Seriously considering a similarly built Scandal to what ichabod has, but slightly concerned that a 140mm fork would be overkill on the geometry of the Scandal.

 

[glitch]

Might be worth giving Mojo or TF Tuned a call. Mojo are the official Fox guru's for the UK but TF tuned have a good rep' as well.

Brilliant - just what I was looking for. Thanks, #Chri5#.

Ok fork length, from centre of axle to crown is 490mm (500mm to bottom of axle hook), the travel on my forks is 150mm/6", and the i have had no problems with the geometry when riding. seems very well balanced

You're a good man, ichabod, thanks for going to all that trouble.

What size frame are you riding there? And how tall are you? Do you hammer the bike or are you quite a smooth rider?

 

[glitch]

5'10" and riding an 18" frame? At 6'1" maybe I do need a 20" frame then...

 

[glitch]

You made a final decision glitch?

I'm still faffing about actually!

Finding it extremely hard to get test rides on suitably-sized frames and as such am reluctant to jump in at the deep end and spend the money on something that's not going to be a good fit. LBS have an excellent selection of bikes... alas all are smaller sizes and none of the larger frames are of similar geometry to the short list.

Fortunately I was down the LBS last weekend and it so happened that a customer had just popped in to collect his 21" Cove Stiffee that had been in for service and I got the chance to ride around on that for a few minutes. Lovely bike, seemed slightly large but still very rideable, but at £550 it's way out of my price bracket.

I'm currently looking at the Maxlight Pha5e frame and hoping to get a test ride on one in the next few weeks, otherwise it's looking likely that I might even go with the Orange P7 in it's 'Pro' incarnation, depending on the '08 spec and price.

With the P7 most of the kit I'd want to buy would already be on the bike and I'd just need to upgrade the fork from the Vanilla R to the RLC.

Annoyingly the spec for the '08 P7 Pro seems to vary from place to place and Orange haven't yet updated their site, even though the launch day for the '08 range was sometime last week.

Spec seems to be similar to this with various types of brakes being listed, depending on where you look. Juicy 3's seem a strange choice as the P7 Pro was running 5's on the 2007 model, but I guess the final spec will be revealed pretty soon.

Should I go frame-only, what forks would you recommend? I really like the look and feel of the Fox range, but at £400 for the Vanilla RLC, I'd rather spend the extra £50 and get a set of Pike's, or save £50 and get the Rock Shox Revelations.

 

[glitch]

Very kind of you to offer, ichabod, but I'm afraid that I live down the other end of the country!

I do like the Fox forks and the feeling of them but they're quite pricey. I'd go for the RL's if I could, but I believe they're OE kit only and you can't buy them on the open market. Having checked out the specs for the '08 range, it seems the weights are 4.3lbs for the R's and 4.37 for the RLC, albeit with a £90 difference in price!

I'm strongly leaning towards the P7 (providing we're not talking Juicy 3's here) in the '08 spec, but might pick up an '07 one if I can find a good deal. Mind you, all that would be pointless if I can't find a 19" frame to test out.

The Maxlight Pha5e seems to be an excellent example of your classic 'hardcore hardtail' and seems to take design cues from both the Pace RC303 (well, more the RC305 actually) and the Cove Stiffee, but comes in at £350 or thereabouts. 18" is the largest frame size they do, be geometry seems to be similar to the 19.5" Stiffee.

This is a medium-size frame, hence the slightly squashed appearance:

 

[glitch]

personally only forks to have are fox or pace! no competition in my eyes. not keen on that maxlight its ugly, i dont think you can go far wrong with the P7 its a lovely bike and well kitted out. My offer remains open if your ever up here have a lovely nature reserve behind me house you can have a test ride on

That Pha5e is ugly, mainly because of the 'battleship grey' colour. I much prefer the 'anti-radar green' offering:

Sounds like you live in a lovely little area, ichabod. Real nice.

How bout a Pace?

Built this myself...

The frame's about £200 over my budget and I think I could do better for cheaper. I've seen a Pace up-close and wasn't blown away with the quality, although I hear they ride especially well.

I also think Orange bikes are pricey. Great frames but the finishing kit isn't too hot. IMO there are better deals.

You think so? Great! Here's your challenge. Find me a better bike than the P7 Pro with the Fox Vanilla RLC forks. You've got around £1,300 to play with.

 

[glitch]

The Pace rides SO well. I sold an S-works Enduro to build this up and I don't regret a thing. Full sus is not for me. Quality wise, no issues. Early models had paint flake, especially the black one. Not a problem now. Did I say it rides well? 27lb for a hardtail that can be thrashed, dropped, raced. It does it all, for me.

I look at the Pace and I look at other frames and I see very little that justifies the extra money. The Orange Crush has very similar geometry and comes in at £130 less than the Pace, as does the Pha5e. Still yet to be blown away by the Pace, but I appreciate your devotion to it!

As for picking a bike..TBH it's down to how the bike feels to you. I could spec you all manner of hardcore hardtails, but you need to test it.

Well, crack on then!

How bout something like this:
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=14971

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/M...?ModelID=14939

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/M...?ModelID=14934

I think we're straying away from my original want of a singletrack weapon - this is firmly XC racer territory.

Compare the kit list of these bikes, then look at what Orange give you as their package.

I'm not seeing the amazing VFM that you're seeing I'm afraid. All the cash seems to be going on the components, which still don't blow the P7 Pro's spec away for me.

Oh, and if you STILL want the P7 Pro, JE James is doing it for £1079. That leaves you cash for pedals, shoes, helmet, lights, DECENT locks, pump, multitool and shock pump.

Alas, not in stock and not in my size.

 

[glitch]

Have you seen the magazine and reader awards the Pace has got? Singletrack best hardtail, WMB best hardtail etc etc.... Perhaps you're looking at something they cant see. As I said, it's not how a bike looks, it's how it feels to YOU.

Listen, I've had just about enough of you now. Stop recommending the Pace. You're making me start to consider one.

In all seriousness, I have seen the reviews, I've seen the awards it has won, the tests it has aced and the numerous glowing reports on it. It's just a hell of a lot of money and I'm not sure it's worth it. Of course, worth is completely relative, and until I've ridden one and ridden it well I'm merely speculating.

What I liked about the Pace. Well, regardless of price, it felt good to ride. I can have the forks at 130mm for coming down big steep hills, rock gardens etc, or wind them down to 100mm and locked off on the road. Either way, they bike just felt right for me. I feel a lot more connected and in control than I did on 2.5k's worth of full suspension, plus I don't have the hassle of tuning the rear shock, replacing bearings and bushings etc. The rear end of the Pace is actually quite forgiving and there's a decent amount of flex in the seat stays and chain stays which make for a very comfy ride. I've popped out in the summer for half hours blast and ended up 20 miles along a canal, with a grin from ear to ear.

Arrrrgh, stop it!

The way I saw it, 450 for the frame was fine - it's the foundation of a decent bike. All the other bits can be upgraded as and when. When you find the right frame for you, you'll keep it, and it's worth the cash.

Well, we'd be talking around £550 for the frame now that the RC305 is out and it's available in anodised black... Which is nice.

On the flip, what is it that you like about the Orange?

I like the frame, I like the spec and I like the general look of the bike. I had a pootle around on a 17" at the LBS and while it was horrendously cramped, it really felt like a nicely put together steed. The problem I've got with those Be-One bikes is I'm seriously worried about the frames. My comment about the VFM was mainly directed at the fact that 90% of your money seems to be going on the components and the frame, to me, seems like something to hang it all off. I'm a bit wary, which is purely a fear of the unknown.

Are you gonna build yourself if you can?

It depends on what I eventually go for. It's a possibility.

Log on here and ask. Lovely bunch of guys and they will be able to help you.

http://uk-mtb.com/index.php

Will do, thanks for that.

What frame material do you want btw?

Not at all bothered. Have been considering both steel and alu so far.

Cove handjob: 330 from wiggle
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/ProductDetail.aspx?Cat=cycle&ProdID=5360023067&N=Cove Handjob XC Frame

Dialled bikes Prince Albert £240
http://www.dialledbikes.com/products/mtb/princealbert.html

I've considered the Handjob but never heard of Dialled until your post. One to look into methinks.

 

[glitch]

Sorry :s Don't mean to add to the confusion.

But here's a few more frames to Google....

Excellent stuff. I've had a good Google and my thoughts are...

Stiffee

Cove Stiffee? Possible but I'm going way over budget with that and I'm not sure I'm 100% keen on the frame. Test rode one for a short while and was impressed, but the frame was a few weeks old and had already started shedding massive bits of paint. A common problem, I believe?

BFe

Cotic BFe? Maybe too hardcore. Seems more 4X and jumping than a singletrack bike.

PA

Dialled Bikes Price Albert? Loving the looks, loving the geometry and loving the price. However, I'm also loving their upcoming Alpine frame which seems a bargain for £300 when you consider the geometry and tubing being used.

mythic scirocco

God I like the look of this frame. No idea about how it would ride, but it's a beauty. Reviews seem to show it's got a very rigid rear end though. Matron.

surly instigator

Too much of a jump bike for normal use.

chameleon

Too expensive when considering the competition. Not a fan of the '08 frame either.

sinister ridge

Interesting but can't find it on sale other than in weeny little sizes.

evil sov

How much?!

orange subzero

I prefer the Crush to this as it's a little more of an all-rounder.

cromag samurai

How much?! Ugly bugger too.