Muhammad Ali V Rocky Marciano.

[Von Smallhausen]

This is basically the fight that never was but in 1970, both fought using a NCR 135 computer to simulate it, the 135 being the most state of the art computer at the time. Marciano won by a knockout but I wonder what the real outcome would have been if both of them had fought in the ring in their prime.

Muhammad Ali was a magnificent specimen of a fighter with everything. Looks, physique, speed, stamina, footwork and although not known as a devastating fighter, he could despatch when called for as 37 KOs in his career of 61 fights is testament to.

Rocky Marciano remains the only heavyweight to have retired as champion with a perfect record 0f 49-0. He was never defeated and the only man to come close was Larry Holmes in 1985 when he was on 49-0 when he fought Michael Spinks and was beaten on points in a bitterly disputed fight. Marciano was small by heavyweight standards, 13st, and was not a particularly skillful fighter but his stamina was legendary and he was almost as fresh in the 15th round as he was in the first and his punch power was simply devastating. His famous right hand or Suzie Q, put many a world class heavyweight on the canvas.

I personally believe that Ali would have won either on points or on cuts, although it would have been a bruising contest. I would be interested to see what anyone else thinks the result would be.

Ali or Marciano ?

 

[Von Smallhausen]

I'm a big boxing fan but I've sadly not watched much of either boxer as they were both before my time. From the little I have seen I would say that the reach advantage, Ali had over Marciano, would prove to be the key. I think he would've jabbed his way to a points victory much like Lewis did to Tua a few years back.

Honestly mate, you are missing some of the best fights ever to be shown. It's well worth getting them if you can. A particular fight I love to watch is Muhammad Ali v Cleveland Williams in 1966. It was Ali in his absolute prime and the most skillful 3 rounds of boxing you will ever see. Ali was simply flawless.

 

[Von Smallhausen]

I know Von would have been disappointed if I didn't say this, but Sir Larry Holmes would have beaten both of them.

* bangs head off brick wall *

 

[Von Smallhausen]

From what I know The Rumble in the Jungle aside Ali didn't tend to allow himself to stay still and accept punishment, that fight as I saw it was an exercise in humiliation, simply to show that he could take the best that Foreman had to offer and stay standing.

I think he did it as he couldn't stand toe to toe with Foreman and instead allowed him to wear himself out before launching the attack from the ropes and decking Foreman in the 8th to win.

Joe Frazier and Ken Norton both tried to fight Foreman toe to toe and both were battered senseless.

 

[Von Smallhausen]

Want some help with that.

LOLLAGE !!!!!

 

[Von Smallhausen]

Come on who else thought of Coming To America

Saul: Goddammit. If a man wants to call himself Muhammed Ali, I say Muhammed Ali.
Clarence: Mama call him Clay - I call him Clay. Cassius Clay.

Clarence: Oh there they go. There they go, every time I start talkin 'bout boxing, a white man got to pull Rocky Marciano out their ass. That's their one, that's their one. Rocky Marciano. Rocky Marciano. Let me tell you something once and for all. Rocky Marciano was good, but compared to Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano ain't ***.

Old Jewish Guy: He beat Joe Louis's ass.

Clarence: Joe Louis was 137 years old.

Being an old git i remember what Ali was like and really there is nothing that compares to him, Period.

Agreed. It's Big Kev you have to convince.

Having said that i don't think Alis' usual tactics would have worked with Rocky.

Agreed again. Marciano would have been swinging his club like punches to Ali's arms to wear him down and Ali would not have known that before and would have to go for the jab and move.

I cannot believe that Ali would have been able to knock out Rocky as he just could not and would not go down. Cuts yes that's what would have stopped the fight if it didn't go the distance.

I think the same. Although Marciano had the tools to put him down, I think Ali would have been too quick for the right hand to connect, although Ali was dropped 4 times in his career including the 1971 fight against Joe Frazier and the left hook in slow motion that does it is the best single punch I have seen thrown.

Odviously once it had gone the distance Ali would win on points as his hand speed and work rate was phenominal. When you watched him live (tv) you couldn't see his hands moving only his opponents head moving back as it was struck. Dazzling footwork used to leave his opponent punching air, he was truly amazing in the ring.

For proof of this his fights against Brian London 1n 1966 and Cleveland Williams the same year show this. The flurry of punches that finishes off London are a blur as you cannot see his hands move it is that fast and his footwork and handspeed against Williams is the most complete display I have seen.

 

[Von Smallhausen]

Ali good fighter but also a show man and a con in the ring look at the controversy surrounding the rumble in the jungle, Foreman was stitched good and proper.
My verdict, Tyson would have destroyed both of them in his prime before he destroyed himself (with the help of that moron King).

A showman definitely but with the talent to back that up, he was certainly no con.

As for the fight in 1974 against Foreman, there was a lot of controversy but Ali saw that Foreman was slow and relied on power punches in the early rounds such as when he took out Joe Frazier and Ken Norton. He also saw that Foreman did not have the stamina for a stand up and drawn out fight and Ali chose to wear him out by using his rope-a-dope tactic and allowed Foreman to punch himself out.

As for a con you mention, the fact Ali was peeing blood after the fight from taking body punches from Foreman ..... a con ?

I would say, much as I like him, Tyson is more the con.

 

[Von Smallhausen]

I think the last thing tyson is, is a con. People just seem to forget what he was a remember the joke he became. I remember seeing a docu once where they slowed down his hand and foot speed and compared it to ali. He was faster.

The tyson just before the prison incident and onwards couldnt have got near ali. He wouldve punched himself out inside of 3 rounds trying to get near him. Prior to that tyson was actually a very good athlete. People forget that and only remember him punching for 3-6 rounds and quitting in his later years.

Tyson shouldve gone on to be greatest of all time, sadly his pigeons have bigger brains.

Tyson came along in 1985 when the heavyweight division was crap. Ali had retired as had Frazier, Foreman etc and the only world class heavyweight there was larry Holmes, 35 years old, although despite the running joke between Big Kev and I, Holmes rates hugely in my book. As for the quicker than Ali documentary, I would like to see that as I don't believe it for a second although that isn't a go at you. I have never seen a flurry of punches by Tyson that is quicker than Ali taking out Brian London. I don't doubt Tyson's hand speed though, it was fast. Very fast.

Mike Tyson swept aside heavyweights of the day such as Berbick, Thomas, Holmes and Spinks but the first sign of his myth of invincibility was when Frank Bruno rattled him and showed that Tyson could be hurt. Tyson later said he had never been hit so hard.

He was a superb athlete though and the inactivity between 1992 and 1995 undoubtedly made him rusty and his private life stopped him becoming the heavyweight legend he should have been. A legend no doubt but he could have been more.

Tyson was always flustered by fighters he couldn't get near and he was outclassed in the opening rounds in 1988 when Holmes fought him. Larry Holmes jabbed his head off with what is still the most sublime jab of all the heavyweights but age took it's toll. Tyson was 22 years old and Holmes 35.

Although older, Tyson got flustered when he couldn't get near Holyfield and payed the price and I believe that Ali would have toyed with him for 12 rounds. Ali went in with bigger hitters than Tyson such as Foreman and Earnie Shavers and they couldn't land the blows to end it and when Ali fought Shavers he was in his mid thirties.

 

[Von Smallhausen]

But that is again looking at tyson from a post prison phase. I dont think he was flustered against holmes at all. Just took a little time to get going.

But for the oening rounds, Holmes boxed superbly and I would have a prime Holmes to beat Tyson on that jab alone.

Foreman and shavers MAY have been harder hitters than tyson but not in such devastating combo's or with the same speed.

Agreed.

As for the bruno bit earlier in the post, so what he got rocked once. Bruno was no pansy in the punch power division. Difference is Tyson stayed up Ali went down when hit by Cooper

If Bruno had of follwed up with a couple of more shots he may have floored him while he was stunned.

As for Ali being dropped, he was dropped 4 times during his career and I think it's testament to a great fighter when they get back up and finish the job, although Ali did lose in 1971 to Frazier after he was dropped with that sledgehammer that was Frazier's left hook.

Holmes was dropped by a massive Earnie Shavers punch but got back up and won. It's no shame being dropped is it ?

In tysons post prison fights or even against douglas he had an amazing chin. He took big whuppings. I dont see ali troubling tysons chin at all. I also dont think thats why holmes jab bothered him, he was quite happy to take a few to work his way inside.

I didn't say he would trouble Tyson's chin, I said he would dance round him for 12 rounds and pick him off and Ali himself acknowledged he wasn't a hard puncher or was known as one.

I'm not ******* on your theory, like mine it's just my thoughts on the matter, If It sounds abrubt I dont mean it too

Not at all, you have your opinions and it all adds to an interesting debate.

 

[Von Smallhausen]

Anyway I don`t like discussions like this about imaginary fights that will never happen from fighters of different times, so I will shut up from now on but I just wanted to put a point across for Marciano too the many Ali Fanboys who probably don`t know that much about Marciano ( Or many other fighters).

Well I like your contribution so please don't shut up and I agree that it is all conjecture and opinion but the thought of a fight between those two does appeal.

Your words weren't a go at anyone I think. I am an Ali fanboy and I do have the knowledge of the heavyweight division from James J Corbett to Mike Tyson and even a bit of Lennox Lewis, my interest is in the Marciano to Tyson years.

I know enough about Marciano and I know enough to appreciate his massive contribution to the heavyweight division and the fact he had a 49-0 record, albeit against some unknowns. I am a big fan of Marciano but for me there is nobody to touch a prime Ali. Big mouth ? yes. Talent to back it up ? Without question.