Music Geeks - Consecutive 5ths and 8ves...

I'm a bit confused really, as far as I know avoiding consecutive 5ths and octaves is only really appropriate when writing 4 part harmony appropriate to genres where you would avoid using something as bland as a 5 th chord (such as in baroque music), repeating the same chord is ok though, but I would add a third.
 
Andelusion said:
I'm a bit confused really, as far as I know avoiding consecutive 5ths and octaves is only really appropriate when writing 4 part harmony appropriate to genres where you would avoid using something as bland as a 5 th chord (such as in baroque music), repeating the same chord is ok though, but I would add a third.
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Well im working on 4 part harmony at the moment for a level music, trying to identify consecutive 5ths and 8ves in a piece of music... Just confused as to wheter a repeated 5th chord counts... I've assumed not?
 
If it's for A level then I wouldn't repeat the same chord.

Are you sure you're harmonising a 5th chord? I'd have thought that'd be unthinkable in good 4 part writing as a 5th chord sounds so bland.
 
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Andelusion said:
If it's for A level then I wouldn't repeat the same chord.

Are you sure you're harmonising a 5th chord? I'd have thought that'd be unthinkable in good 4 part writing as a 5th chord sounds so bland.
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We're talking a 5th chord as in "chord V" here - i.e. the chord of G (or G7) in the key of C major, not a plain power chord.

And to the OP, it's fine - you can repeat the same chord twice. They only count as consecutive when the voices move.

Of course, the real answer is go and look in the Riemenschneider and see if you can find if Bach did it :)
 
If you can read bass and treble clef, and have an understanding of keys and triads, that's all you need to get started. Have a google for basic 4 part harmony :)
 
Andelusion said:
Ah totally didn't see that he was talking about the dominant :p
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I wasn't talking about the dominant!! I was talking about a repeated chord, with an interval of a 5th... or as has been said, a power chord...

Oh and thanks Timbob!! That's the answer I was looking for! Thought that was the case but wasn't 100% sure!! Oh and btw... you must be right, as you have the best name there is! ;)
 
To answer this question, we need to define some of the terms.

What is a consecutive fifth, why do we need to identify them, and Oh i see Timbob beat me to it.


..I understand the fifth chord in scale of C major would be G, but that's about it. I'm really confused about your rules on what is acceptable and what isn't.
 
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Robosapien said:
To answer this question, we need to define some of the terms.

What is a consecutive fifth, why do we need to identify them, and Oh i see Timbob beat me to it.


..I understand the fifth chord in scale of C major would be G, but that's about it. I'm really confused about your rules on what is acceptable and what isn't.
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Basically ... The consecutive 5th rule is when you have in 2 different parts a perfect 5th (eg C, G) followed by another perfect 5th (eg, F, C) in the same parts... Not allowed!!

Same applies for Consecutive octaves... in the same parts...

Anybody correct me if there's more to say on the matter!
 
engstrom0304 said:
Basically ... The consecutive 5th rule is when you have in 2 different parts a perfect 5th (eg C, G) followed by another perfect 5th (eg, F, C) in the same parts... Not allowed!!

Same applies for Consecutive octaves... in the same parts...

Anybody correct me if there's more to say on the matter!
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Wow, never heard of these strange musical rules before. They really do sound unnecessarily restrictive, I mean even for a particular style of classical music. Does the prohibition really have that much of an impact on the music itself, or is it purely an abstract theoretical,...superstition, for want of a better phrase?
 
Robosapien said:
Wow, never heard of these strange musical rules before. They really do sound unnecessarily restrictive, I mean even for a particular style of classical music. Does the prohibition really have that much of an impact on the music itself, or is it purely an abstract theoretical,...superstition, for want of a better phrase?
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if you are playing music, improvising, for example, you will find yourself obeying these rules naturally a lot of the time no doubt! (Unless you're going for that medieval style!) So in fact this is just in writing, what many people wouldn't think about...

There are other rules, for example in cadences (end of phrases)... You cannot double the 3rd of the triad in a major chord, the bass note must be the root position, and there are others... But again these rules follow what sounds good... For example... If you play a triad in the right hand with a triad in the left also, it will sound muddy, because notes low down the piano are harder to distinguish (physics geeks feel free to intervene) so, removing that major third in the left, giving chord I and V makes things sound much nicer.

So to answer your question, these rules are the standard convention for the classical and romantic period and it is in fact the breaking of these rules in the right ways that makes a composer great! So in the real world you're right, these rules can be broken or bent! But with care!!

If I've made any mistakes in this explanation guys please correct me!! Would be helpful to know!
 
Robosapien said:
Wow, never heard of these strange musical rules before. They really do sound unnecessarily restrictive, I mean even for a particular style of classical music. Does the prohibition really have that much of an impact on the music itself, or is it purely an abstract theoretical,...superstition, for want of a better phrase?
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They are indeed only for a particular style of music, yes. As part of the A level Music syllabus, students have to study the way JS Bach wrote his 4 part vocal harmony. So they are the rules of one particular composer, and one particular time period just less than 300 years ago.

Plenty of people break them (Bach himself included), but generally speaking, if you find yourself writing 4 part choral music, you can't go far wrong using these rules as a guideline. Without them, it's very easy to find yourself writing "weak" harmony. A particular chord might sound full and rich, and the next strangely empty - even though the voices are still in the middle of their range etc etc...

We're talking "weak" in a 4 part - probably unaccompanied - choral context here, however. Chugging metal music sounds plenty powerful enough, and literally all they are doing is parallel 5ths and octaves.


engstrom0304 said:
if you are playing music, improvising, for example, you will find yourself obeying these rules naturally a lot of the time no doubt! (Unless you're going for that medieval style!) So in fact this is just in writing, what many people wouldn't think about...

There are other rules, for example in cadences (end of phrases)... You cannot double the 3rd of the triad in a major chord, the bass note must be the root position, and there are others... But again these rules follow what sounds good... For example... If you play a triad in the right hand with a triad in the left also, it will sound muddy, because notes low down the piano are harder to distinguish (physics geeks feel free to intervene) so, removing that major third in the left, giving chord I and V makes things sound much nicer.

So to answer your question, these rules are the standard convention for the classical and romantic period and it is in fact the breaking of these rules in the right ways that makes a composer great! So in the real world you're right, these rules can be broken or bent! But with care!!

If I've made any mistakes in this explanation guys please correct me!! Would be helpful to know!
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Generally speaking, you're on the right lines - but only for SATB vocal writing, and probably mainly in the Baroque period - you're studying the way Bach wrote his harmony remember (but he was a genius!)Rules got thrown out left, right and centre come the Romantic period. When I write jazz big band charts, I have parallel octaves and fifths all over the place, doubling of plenty of thirds (even omitting them sometimes - shock!!)

There are other bits and bobs - for example, you can (and should) have the bass singing the 3rd of 5th of the chord at some points. Most likely though, your teacher is giving you exercises to complete with simplified rules in order to help you get to grips with things. I did exactly the same when I taught this last year.
 
If you're studying for a theory exam, do not repeat the same harmonic interval in succession. Insta-fail.

There's no such thing as a 'rule' in music, but there is such thing as one, when you're studying music. ;)
 
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