My new 5x5 work out. But I have some questions...

[UnknownSoldier]

Right well here it is... (basically Bill Starrs I think)

Monday
Squat 5x5
Bench 5x5
Barbell Row 5x5
Weighted Sit ups (8Kg)4x15

Wednesday
Squat 4x5
Incline DB benchpress 4x5
Deadlift 4x5
Sit-ups 3x20

Friday ( I am not looking forward to this )
Squat 4x5 , 1x3, 1x8
Bench 4x5, 1x3, 1x8
Barbell Row 4x5, 1x3, 1x8
Weighted Dips 3x8
Preacher Curls 3x8
Triceps Extenision 3x8

I did the Monday work out today with the following weights:
Monday
Squat 5x5 (100,115,120,125,130)Kg
Bench 5x5 (70, 72.5,75,77.5,80)Kg
Barbell Row 5x5 (50,52.5,55,57.5,60)Kg
Weighted Sit ups (8Kg)4x15

I think I judged the weights pretty well apart from in the BB Row were I think that I could have done more. I reached my 5RM on the bench and was very close to it on my squats. I need to get a belt before I go for more on squat I think + my spine is getting a hammering.

Is this ramping up a good idea?

I am going to do this for 4 weeks and see how it goes for me. I will keep a log here so that people interested in the 5x5 can see how well it works with me.

 

[GordyR]

Good stuff mate. Looks to be Bill Starr's exactly to me. Well with the exception of you using DB's for the inclines.

One thing though, you say you hit your 5RM on bench today? Well if this is your first week then you shouldn't have yet.

I think you might be misunderstanding part of the way this workout works. You shouldn't be hitting your current 5 rep maxes until around the 4th week so you will want to give the program longer than 4 weeks. The idea is that you are starting lighter than you can actually handle on week 1 and build up to your max on around week 4 then after that you should be trying for PR's each week until you fail consecutively. Then deload and start again calculating from your new 5 rep maxes. Once you stop getting gains from this, swith to dual factor/periodisation etc.

You can download a sample workout template in excel format which should calculate your weights for you from here...

http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Linear_5x5.htm

Essentially when calculating your weights for each workout you should put your current maxes at week 4 and work backwards subracting from the weight in intervals for weeks 1-3. If that makes sense. It's all about progressive loading.

Hope this helps mate.

 

[DanH84]

Ramping up the weights is what linear 5x5 is all about yeah.

I have yet to try the more advanced versions (i'm scared of them).

 

[UnknownSoldier]

Good stuff mate. Looks to be Bill Starr's exactly to me. Well with the exception of you using DB's for the inclines.

One thing though, you say you hit your 5RM on bench today? Well if this is your first week then you shouldn't have yet.

I think you might be misunderstanding part of the way this workout works. You shouldn't be hitting your current 5 rep maxes until around the 4th week so you will want to give the program longer than 4 weeks. The idea is that you are starting lighter than you can actually handle on week 1 and build up to your max on around week 4 then after that you should be trying for PR's each week until you fail consecutively. Then deload and start again calculating from your new 5 rep maxes. Once you stop getting gains from this, swith to dual factor/periodisation etc.

You can download a sample workout template in excel format which should calculate your weights for you from here...

http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Linear_5x5.htm

Essentially when calculating your weights for each workout you should put your current maxes at week 4 and work backwards subracting from the weight in intervals for weeks 1-3. If that makes sense. It's all about progressive loading.

Hope this helps mate.

Hmm interesting...the thing is I have actually been doing the 3 day split up till now and progressing by about 1-2Kg(in terms of what I can lift per set) a week for the past few months. Doesnt this mean that I have done a certain degree of loading? I dont really want to lower the weight I am lifting. I enjoy feeling steamrollered after I leave the gym. BTW thanks for the link Gordy...

 

[GordyR]

Hmm interesting...the thing is I have actually been doing the 3 day split up till now and progressing by about 1-2Kg(in terms of what I can lift per set) a week for the past few months. Doesnt this mean that I have done a certain degree of loading? I dont really want to lower the weight I am lifting. I enjoy feeling steamrollered after I leave the gym. BTW thanks for the link Gordy...

I guarantee that by week 4 you will be feeling completely steamrollered matey.

Yes, when you first start the program it feels "too easy". But the loading phase is extremely important. It is kind of designed to push you past your current maxes by building up a sort of progressive strength gain for a few weeks. Then you hit your maxes and blast past them.

I haven't met a single person whom after having done the programme correctly hasn't liked it. However there are plenty of people out there who have started straight out at their maxes and gotten little in the way of results.

Squatting right to your current 5RM 3 times a week will quickly burn most people out and put a halt to their gains. Well, assuming it is their true 5RM. If I were you I would treat this work out as a test for your 5 rep maxes.

Training with deloading etc. feels extremely alien at first but if you can stick with it you will be amazed by the strength gains once you have exceeded your current maxes. And of course with those strength gains come mass.

 

[UnknownSoldier]

I dont think I was squatting to my current 5RM but I was pretty close I think. TBH I think that when I do squats I never squeeze as much out of it as I can - its just that my body feels like its going to explode(but not due to the muscles not being strong enough).

So you dont think that my 3 day split will have built up the 'progressive strength gain' sufficiently?

 

[GordyR]

I dont think I was squatting to my current 5RM but I was pretty close I think. TBH I think that when I do squats I never squeeze as much out of it as I can - its just that my body feels like its going to explode(but not due to the muscles not being strong enough).

Out of interest are you squatting below parallel? Despite what mr. pink dumbell personal trainer tells you about knee issues... You should be.

So you dont think that my 3 day split will have built up the 'progressive strength gain' sufficiently?

The thing is it's a completely different type of training to a 3 day split. On a split you are blasting each muscle group seriously hard once per week with relatively high volume and isolation exercises etc. On a workout like this the fatigue is kind of spread out and accumulated. You are doing less exercises per day but doing them more frequently. Call it accumulative fatigue.

The fact is our muscles can be worked more often than once per week without fear of overtraining. However if we blast our central nervous system (like you do in a typical split) then your CNS takes far longer to recover which is why we tend to leave 7 days between bodyparts on a split.

Right now your CNS won't be used to working a bodypart more than once per week let alone 3X. You need to train your CNS to adjust to this different type of training. One thing to mention is you will likely find DOMS a thing of the past on this routine.

 

[UnknownSoldier]

sorry DOMS?

I try and do my squats so my knees are bent 90 degrees.

Well I have 4 weeks at Uni and then I have wont have easy access to the gym plus I am going on holiday. I dont really have the time to do this do I? Is there something intense that I can do over the next four weeks and then rest after that?

 

[GordyR]

sorry DOMS?

Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness. It's that feeling that you often get after a workout where your muscles feel kind of sore the for next couple of days.

I try and do my squats so my knees are bent 90 degrees.

These should be full range olympic style squats. Which basically means as low as you can go. The whole "squatting past parallel is bad for your knees" thing is an old wives tale. Going below parallel is actually better for your knees since the load is transferred to the rest of the body instead of being whacked purely on to the knees.

Theres a good article on squat technique here...

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5124176&postcount=825

Well I have 4 weeks at Uni and then I have wont have easy access to the gym plus I am going on holiday. I dont really have the time to do this do I? Is there something intense that I can do over the next four weeks and then rest after that?

By all means give it a go the way you were intending to mate. I'm not saying you wont make progress and gains, just that ideally the loading part of this program should be adhered to strictly.

Alternatively, I quite like the look of this routine I found on another forum, though I haven't used exactly this myself... Props go to FortifiedIron.

Week 1: 3x12
Week 2: 3x10
Week 3: 3x8
Week 4: 4x6
Week 5: 5x5
Week 6: 8x3
(You will do this on ALL lifts)

Lower
Upper
off
Lower
Upper
off
off


Upper Day 1:
- Bench Press
- Close Grip Bench
- Military Press (standing)
- Pendlay Row

Lower Day 1:
- Conventional Deadlift
- Narrow Stance Squat
- Goodmorning
- Barbell Shrugs

Upper Day 2:
- DB Bench
- Narrow Grip Incline
- Plate Raise
- Pull-Up w/ weight

Lower Day 2:
- Narrow Stance Squat
- SLDL
- Reverse Hyper
- Dumbell Shrugs

** This is the program, DO NOT SUBTRACT any of the exercises! If you dont know how to do them, learn how to do them! The only reason you should ever pull out any of these during the whole 5 week cycle is if you feel pain doing them. If you dont know the lift I'd suggest doing an alternate pattern with the movement. Basicly rather than progressing with the given rep/set pattern I've showed continue to do:

3x12
3x10
3x8
3x8
3x8

Once you start the cycle over again after the 5th week, you can then continue the same rep/set pattern as the first outline (with the regular lifts) and progress in the lower reps. This will 1. Keep you from getting hurt, 2. Teach your form, and 3. Break the learning chain/curve. Its key that if you dont know anything about the movements that you spend as much time working with them and do as many reps as possible with the given movement. This is where motor skills develop and intra-inter neuromuscular coordination develop w/ the movement.

** Biceps/Abs, Upper day's throw in a bicep exercise if you want. On lower days throw in some Ab work. This is an accesory work, so its not that important. Keep the reps around 3x8-4x6 if you want.

** Keep a journal that I'll have access too. I'll look at how your progressing. If you have any before pictures send them to me or save them. Once your done with the first meso cycle compare your progress from before you started till then w/ pics and lift achivments. Do the same when you repeat the cycle. This is key in mental motivation, and that is where to many people fail.

** Once you get a whole meso cycle Wave (12 total weeks) you'll take some low volume work to help recovery. Its key that you dont take ANY time away from the gym. To many people just walk away for a week or two weeks, this makes coming back a sore painful mess for atleast 2 weeks. Now you've spent 4 weeks without making any progress. This is a typical deloading pattern. By trianing under your adaptive threshold (ie low volume) then you will not adapt, therefor you will recover. This is the fundomental bases of periodization!!

** During the first few 4 weeks you can add in failure work. Dont do it on all lifts and dont do it on squats, squat variations or deadlifts. Rows, Shrugs, db benching are all ok. Another thing to keep note on is during the WHOLE cycle you want SHORT rest periods. Im talking 30-60 seconds between sets, this comes key when you get to the intensity portion (8x3). Fatigue has a positive effect on IGF-I and other singaling for hypertrophy. On weeks 4-6 this is a big factor in the program. This will help with conditioning the muscle and overal work capacity.

 

[oddjob62]

These should be full range olympic style squats. Which basically means as low as you can go. The whole "squatting past parallel is bad for your knees" thing is an old wives tale. Going below parallel is actually better for your knees since the load is transferred to the rest of the body instead of being whacked purely on to the knees.

See this video for a good example of squatting.

 

[UnknownSoldier]

OK well I have been doing this regime for three weeks not and I have seen some major improvements:

Bench 3RM 85Kg (was 80Kg)
Row 3RM 65kg (was 60Kg)
Squat 3RM 137.5kg (was 130Kg)

I have to note that I have also missed a few sessions so infact I am only about 2.5 weeks into the regime in terms of exercises. Seems to be going OK but for the first two weeks I was shattered by the weekend.

 

[UnknownSoldier]

One question though...

On my benchpress I managed to get through the 4x5, then the 1x3 (3RM) but when it comes to do the last 1x8 I just can get past the 6th-7th rep. Should be waiting before I increase the weight? I am sure if I rested longer I might be able to do 8 reps on the last set. Does it matter that you dont complete the full 8 reps ( I probably could do this with some assistance)


P.S That squat vid is a amazing!

 

[oddjob62]

One question though...

On my benchpress I managed to get through the 4x5, then the 1x3 (3RM) but when it comes to do the last 1x8 I just can get past the 6th-7th rep. Should be waiting before I increase the weight? I am sure if I rested longer I might be able to do 8 reps on the last set. Does it matter that you dont complete the full 8 reps ( I probably could do this with some assistance)


P.S That squat vid is a amazing!

No don't worry if you don't get the 8. Try hard, but if you don't just keep going. The important set is the 1x3 because this will be your max 5rep weight the following Monday.

EDIT: Well done on the increased lifts. Alwaysg good to hear reports of improvement.

 

[GordyR]

No don't worry if you don't get the 8. Try hard, but if you don't just keep going. The important set is the 1x3 because this will be your max 5rep weight the following Monday.

Agreed. The 8 rep set is little more than a "pump" set to be honest. Just checking but you are lowering the weight for the 8 rep set aren't you?

Just thought I should point out that this is the reason behind the loading period I was speaking about before. You really should have found the first two weeks pretty easy and only on around the 3rd-4th week should it have become tough. However you have made some great strength gains so it certainly seems to be working for you. Good job!

What I would suggest though is once your strength gains plateau, reset the program with your new 5RM, drop the weights on the plateau'd lifts and spend 3-4 weeks working up gradually to your maxes again, once you have done this you will likely find that you are able to break through that plateau and hit new all time maxes.

Try to get as much out of single factor/linear training as you can. Then move over to dual factor/periodisation.

 

[A2Z]

Try to get as much out of single factor training as you can. Then move over to dual-factor.

whats single and dual factor?

 

[GordyR]

whats single and dual factor?

I actually meant to be far more specific and say get as much gains from single factor/linear traning as you can and then switch to a dual factor/periodised program when you need to.

But anyway, to answer your question this article explains the difference between single and dual factor training pretty well...

http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/PlannedOvertraining.html

A periodised program is really only recommended for advanced lifters who can no longer make good strength gains on a linear program. If you can still gain well using a linear training method then your gains will be faster.

 

[UnknownSoldier]

I have been really pleased with the result of this program. The guy who I trained with has also blasted through his maxes. Previously he could only bench 72.5 (3x8) and yesterday he did his 3RM at 80KG.

Gordy I think you are right in saying that the regime would be killer if you started at you max but I actually did not follow the regime to the letter. on average I was probably doing only 2 of the three days per week (and carrying on from where I left off the week after!) which means by SNS and muscles had time to recover.

I tried to get into a t shirt that I hadnt worn since about 1 month ago (it was fitted then) but now its just plain uncomfortable

I think after I finish this regime (i.e at this rate in two and a half weeks) I will go back to my 3 day split (3x8 non linear progression) and see how well my strength increases translate 3x8. What do you think?