Need a sound card that does DDL and DTS

[elrasho]

I currently have a Creative XFI Xtreme Music and I bought the DDL/DTS Pack for $5 but it doesn't work. I've tried everything from older drivers to changing the PCI slot that cards in (yes that's how desperate I am to get this working).

When I select DDL or DTS from the creative control panel I cant play anything, windows media player says the device is in use(this is the error code: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-GB/windows7/C00D11B1). When having DDL decoding enabled and I play a game, the receiver shows a dolby digital signal coming through but I get no sound. I've tried every single possible combination of speaker settings to get DDL/DTS coming over SPDIF to my AV Receiver but no joy, the only way I can get DDL/DTS is to make my AV Receiver do the decoding. This is OK in movies but doesn't work well at all in games. For example in Warhammer Space Marines when someone is talking behind me it is barley audible through the back speakers, but when I use HDMI PCM from the 5850 on-board sound card its crystal clear.

I want the decent 5.1 Dolby sound from a sound card so I'm thinking of getting a Asus Xonar DX 7.1 which has built in DDL and DTS decoding. Will this do what I want?

 

[elrasho]

Well this is strange! I accidentally set my headset as the default device and I started get DTS sound from my receiver!? This is what my sound options look like:



As you can see I should have SPDIF Out as my default to get sound going out from the SPDIF socket, but instead I've got the Auxiliary selected as default (which is a single green jack for my headset) but Im getting sound to the receive AND to my headset!? What the heck is going on!?

I've tried with Dolby Digital and it works too, Im puzzled??

Your probably thinking why I dont use PCM sound over HDMI. Well I found it was affecting my framerates. Even though the HDMI was only being used for sound, Windows 7 sees it as a second display and so uses some of the 5850s power to display something thats not actually connected to monitor. Because of this I was losing around 10fps average in games, which is a lot for someone who doesn't like gaming below 60fps.

 

[elrasho]

Bump.. anyone able to shed some light on this?

 

[joeyjojo]

Try right click, properties, supported formats, and select (probably only) DTS and 44.1 KHz. Maybe try that for both Speakers and SPDIF I'm not sure.

Do something similar under advanced (I have 2 channel 24 bit 44.1 KHz for my CA DACMagic, I don't listen to much 24/96).

 

[elrasho]

I am getting sound though, its just that I have Windows 7 set to the green auxilarry connection as the default and only then I get sound through the SPDIF!?

 

[james.miller]

That's probably correct. If you think about the way DDL and DTS encoding work (they encode an analogue source in to a lossy format) then having the speakers as the default output is probably the way it has to work in order for the encoders to function.

 

[elrasho]

That's probably correct. If you think about the way DDL and DTS encoding work (they encode an analogue source in to a lossy format) then having the speakers as the default output is probably the way it has to work in order for the encoders to function.

I dont get it DDL/DTS convert digital not analogue right? Isn't SPDIF digital?

I understand DD converts to a lossy format (and tbh I cant notice a difference between DD and PCM over HDMI although I've read PCM over HDMI is meant to me a lot better) but why would I have to tell Windows 7 to pump sound over the green analouge connection in order for the sound to travel down the SPDIF socket aswell?

 

[joeyjojo]

the only way I can get DDL/DTS is to make my AV Receiver do the decoding.
...
I want the decent 5.1 Dolby sound from a sound card so I'm thinking of getting a Asus Xonar DX 7.1 which has built in DDL and DTS decoding. Will this do what I want?

You seem a bit muddled. SPDIF is a digital signal, the common formats for which are PCM, Dolby Digital, and DTS. If you're using SPDIF, then the receiver must do some kind of "decoding" (quotes as PCM technically isn't encoded) and DAC.

Things like DVDs will be encoded in something 5.1 which the receiver will almost certainly understand if you pass it through. Everything else, e.g. windows media player and games will go through the windows mixer (the "Speakers", it's the default output) and will not be encoded into something the receiver can understand unless the soundcard does some on-the-fly encoding. It's very likely that your soundcard will be able to output PCM on the SPDIF, so if your receiver can take that that's the best route.

If you can't get all the sound piped in PCM over SPDIF, then all but the cheapest xonar cards will do on-the-fly dolby digital (called DDL Dolby Digital Live) so this is another option.

Finally windows media player is pretty cack and will not make it easy for you. I use foobar with my dacmagic and a WASAPI plugin which bypasses the windows mixer entirely.

EDIT: having read the new replies - the "Speakers" output isn't necessarily the analogue out, it's just the default mixer

 

[james.miller]

I dont get it DDL/DTS convert digital not analogue right? Isn't SPDIF digital?

I understand DD converts to a lossy format (and tbh I cant notice a difference between DD and PCM over HDMI although I've read PCM over HDMI is meant to me a lot better) but why would I have to tell Windows 7 to pump sound over the green analouge connection in order for the sound to travel down the SPDIF socket aswell?

Think of spdif and 'speakers' as two separate output devices.

'speakers' is multi channel, 5.1 in this case, spdif is 2 channel only. DD/DTS encoders with with multichannel audio and compress them in to a losy codec that can then be transferred by spdif. but the spdif output on its own can not handle multi channel (more than 2) audio. This is why the soundcard needs to output to the speakers in order for the encoder to take this output, encode it and pass it on the the spdif output.

What would have made more sence if if DD/DTD was selected as a direct output in the control panel(next to 'speakers' and 'spdif', but there you go. Anyway, the why's aren't really that important if it's doing what you want it to do, are they?

 

[joeyjojo]

^ Hmm, only 2 channel PCM or 6 channel compressed - you learn something new every day, thanks jm. Does the sample rate not have something to say about that?

 

[elrasho]

If you can't get all the sound piped in PCM over SPDIF, then all but the cheapest xonar cards will do on-the-fly dolby digital (called DDL Dolby Digital Live) so this is another option.

The thing is guys I bought the DDL/DTS pack which gives me options to decode in Dolby or DTS:



The XFI is decoding the Dolby, my AV Receiver is just passing it through. I know this because I have the receiver set to "straight" which in the manual means it doesn't process the audio, it simply passes it through,

If I switch off Dolby decoding in the XFI Control panel and then select Dolby Pro Logic 2 on the AV Receiver it does do 5.1 surround sound but its pants compared to the XFI Dolby decoding.

I can get PCM through the onboard sound card on the 5850 but I found it takes away about 10fps in my games thats why I now have sound coming through my XFI xtreme gamer

EDIT: I think I understand whats happening, its the HOW Im struggling with lol its working like I want it to but its the bugging the hell out of me as I dont know how!

 

[james.miller]

^ Hmm, only 2 channel PCM or 6 channel compressed - you learn something new every day, thanks jm. Does the sample rate not have something to say about that?

Well, not really. It's more a format issue. 24bit/192khz pcm stereo (which spdif supports perfectly fine) is 9.2Mb/sec whereas DTS over spdif supports up to 1.5Mb/sec. granted, that's lossy and at a low bitrate, but it's still very good in terms of sound quality. But anyway, there's no reason why spdif couldnt have supported 48khz/24bit 8 channel lpcm, which unless my maths are wrong, also works out about 9.2Mb/sec. Ie, well inside the bandwidth limits of spdif.

The XFI is decoding the Dolby, my AV Receiver is just passing it through

No! you are trying to encode, not decode.

encoding = take a multi-channel source, encode it, pass it to the amp through the spdif output for the amp to decode.
decoding = take DD or DTS from a dvd (or a similar source), decode it and output the separate channels to an amp via the soundcards analogue outputs.
passthru = take the dd/dts audio straiht from the source and pass it through the spdif untouched to the amp for decoding.

 

[hughythomas]

'speakers' is multi channel, 5.1 in this case, spdif is 2 channel only. DD/DTS encoders with with multichannel audio and compress them in to a losy codec that can then be transferred by spdif. but the spdif output on its own can not handle multi channel (more than 2) audio. This is why the soundcard needs to output to the speakers in order for the encoder to take this output, encode it and pass it on the the spdif output.

Hi James,

Would you be so kind as to elaborate on this paragraph? (and possibly re-write?). Any knowledge on this front would be invaluable for someone like myself who has always wondered about these 'entertainment' formats ie. how they work, as I come from more of a pro audio background. A quick post explaining would be sweet dude

for example, I get confused by the whole concept of encoding. Are we switching between analogue/digital realms - is there conversion going on at this stage by selecting 'speakers' in sound properties in Windows 7? Or is the idea generally to send the digital stream down the cable and onto other devices (like Home Cinema Receivers?).

Cheers!

 

[elrasho]

Well, not really. It's more a format issue. 24bit/192khz pcm stereo (which spdif supports perfectly fine) is 9.2Mb/sec whereas DTS over spdif supports up to 1.5Mb/sec. granted, that's lossy and at a low bitrate, but it's still very good in terms of sound quality. But anyway, there's no reason why spdif couldnt have supported 48khz/24bit 8 channel lpcm, which unless my maths are wrong, also works out about 9.2Mb/sec. Ie, well inside the bandwidth limits of spdif.



No! you are trying to encode, not decode.

encoding = take a multi-channel source, encode it, pass it to the amp through the spdif output for the amp to decode.
decoding = take DD or DTS from a dvd (or a similar source), decode it and output the separate channels to an amp via the soundcards analogue outputs.
passthru = take the dd/dts audio straiht from the source and pass it through the spdif untouched to the amp for decoding.

Thanks that clears things up but I still don't know why its working for me with my current configuration. Looking at your three examples, it sounds like im doing a mixture of encoding and passthru.. xfi is encoding in Dolby and the AV Receiver is passing it through to my speakers.

 

[james.miller]

Hi hughythomas,

It started with the original dolby digital and DTS as found on dvd. Both are codecs designed to save space using compression of some kind. DD as it was was strictly lossy-only and used some clever algorithms to throw what it deemed as unimportant information away. DTS could do the same, but it was also able to work losslessly (ie, when decoded it was bit-perfect to the original source).

These days there are multiple versions of Dolby digital and DTS with varying bit rates, sampling rates, number of channels, lossy or lossless ect. Evolutions of the original formats but the idea is the same.

DD and DTS encoders. These were born out of want to supply a signal from pc's (and later consoles) with a multi channel digital input. Some people believed it was superior and some people just appreciated the simplicity of using one cheap cable vs 3 or 4 high quality pairs of rca's (i know i did!).

for example, I get confused by the whole concept of encoding. Are we switching between analogue/digital realms - is there conversion going on at this stage by selecting 'speakers' in sound properties in Windows 7? Or is the idea generally to send the digital stream down the cable and onto other devices (like Home Cinema Receivers?).

Are we switching domains...... Actually that is a good question. Even though the 'speakers' output is called 'speakers', it is actually just the soundcard's mixer as JoeyJojo mentioned. Whether the card is converting the digital audio from the game to analogue, then back to digital (in the form of pcm) and then encoding using DDLive or DTS interactive, or if it simple does it all in the digital domain, I don't know for sure. I would hope it's the later and I am sure that's the case, but it's not something i have ever thought about. Perhaps somebody else might be able to answer that one.

Whatever happens, the intention is to output a multichannel format over digital that an amp will accept and decode, something that for whatever reason isnt otherwise an option (ie, the amp doesnt have 6 channel analogue inputs, or it's too far away to justify the cost of the interconnects needed ect)

 

[hughythomas]

Hi James,

Thanks for the response. I checked Wikipedia's DTS page in search of some answers and found this:

"DTS Interactive: This is a real-time DTS stream encoder. On the PC, it takes multichannel audio and converts it into a 1.5 Mbit/s DTS stream for output. Because it uses the original DTS codec to transmit audio, fidelity is limited to 5.1 channel at 48 kHz, 24bit. More than 5.1 channels, a higher sampling frequency or data rate are not supported, due to the lack of support for DTS variants such as DTS 96/24. It can also be found on some standalone devices (e.g., Surround Encoder). Nearly a dozen titles on the PlayStation 2 feature the "DTS Interactive" real-time stream encoder, such as Grand Theft Auto: Vice City and Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines."

Note it says in the first sentence: 'PC Audio' - still doesn't explain if this is analogue or digital. I can only presume digital as we are dealing with computers here right? 0s and 1s?

For example, I use DTS Connect on most games with my Denon AVR-1910 for surround sound in my living room. Does the fact that it is 'only' 1.5Mbit/s mean that DTS is degrading the integrity of the signal somehow? Anyone know if they are planning on bringing DTS-HD (7 channel 96/24) to games anytime soon or is it strictly for Blu-Ray playback?

Also, what does "due to the lack of support for DTS variants such as DTS 96/24" mean? Lack of support in games? Or lack of support from the actual DTS Connect standard? Ie for the latter; they need to upgrade the algorithms to support higher fidelity digital surround decoding which is due sometime in the future?

So confused...lol!!!

 

[james.miller]

Note it says in the first sentence: 'PC Audio' - still doesn't explain if this is analogue or digital. I can only presume digital as we are dealing with computers here right? 0s and 1s?

I would very much expect that DTS interactive (the encoding part of DTS connect) does everything in the digital domain but i can not confirm this in any way as I can not find any information regarding the exact way it works.

For example, I use DTS Connect on most games with my Denon AVR-1910 for surround sound in my living room. Does the fact that it is 'only' 1.5Mbit/s mean that DTS is degrading the integrity of the signal somehow? Anyone know if they are planning on bringing DTS-HD (7 channel 96/24) to games anytime soon or is it strictly for Blu-Ray playback?

Yes the signal is degraded in much the same way that 320k mp3 is inferior to wav, that is to say you would be hard pressed to tell the difference in most circumstances. DDLive, you would probably notice the difference more.

as for a hd version of dts interactive? probably not. why bother when we now have lpcm output over hdmi? my gpu supports 192khz/24bit 7.1 LPCM (fully lossless) output - DDLive and DTS interactive are now obsolete, imo.

Also, what does "due to the lack of support for DTS variants such as DTS 96/24" mean? Lack of support in games? Or lack of support from the actual DTS Connect standard? Ie for the latter; they need to upgrade the algorithms to support higher fidelity digital surround decoding which is due sometime in the future?

So confused...lol!!!

Lack of support from DTS interactive, but i refer to my previous point - with LPCM now available, it isnt needed.

 

[hughythomas]

Thanks again for your response James. You've really helped my understanding of this - much appreciated!

Just a couple more questions bro.

I currently have an Auzentech X-Fi Prelude. The 3.5mm analogue jack is connected to some Logitech 2.1 desktop speakers (at my monitor) and my Denon AVR-1910 is connected to the SPDIF output of the Prelude for surround sound through my Monitor Audio BX series setup (which I use for games like GTAIV when I play on the couch in front of the TV).

Someone (Alfbaxter) in another thread kindly helped me find the "bit-matched playback" function on the Prelude which, if I understand correctly, enables digital playback without any sort of DSP (ie lossy signal degradation) on my music collection over SPDIF into my loudspeaker setup.

I was recently looking at the Auzentech X-Fi HomeTheater HD as an upgrade to my Prelude:

http://www.auzentech.com/site/products/x-fi_hometheater_hd.php

Notice one of the big things about the HomeTheater HD is a) the HDMI I/O and b) harping on about Dolby TrueHD & DTS-HD.

In my rig I also have an NVIDIA GTX 580 for graphics. It has an HDMI output on the back.

From what you are saying it sounds like my GTX 580 would be more than up to the task of outputting lPCM 7.1 channel digital surround sound over HDMI into my receiver right? Would this be preferable as DTS Connect and Dolby Digital are lossy formats?

I work in pro audio so audio fidelity is VERY important to me...

Would there be little point upgrading to the HomeTheater HD from my Prelude as my GTX 580 could handle audio over HDMI to my receiver or am I missing something key?

Sorry for the hijack of the thread btw - would be more than happy to start a new one if need be?

 

[elrasho]

Thanks again for your response James. You've really helped my understanding of this - much appreciated!

Just a couple more questions bro.

I currently have an Auzentech X-Fi Prelude. The 3.5mm analogue jack is connected to some Logitech 2.1 desktop speakers (at my monitor) and my Denon AVR-1910 is connected to the SPDIF output of the Prelude for surround sound through my Monitor Audio BX series setup (which I use for games like GTAIV when I play on the couch in front of the TV).

Someone (Alfbaxter) in another thread kindly helped me find the "bit-matched playback" function on the Prelude which, if I understand correctly, enables digital playback without any sort of DSP (ie lossy signal degradation) on my music collection over SPDIF into my loudspeaker setup.

I was recently looking at the Auzentech X-Fi HomeTheater HD as an upgrade to my Prelude:

http://www.auzentech.com/site/products/x-fi_hometheater_hd.php

Notice one of the big things about the HomeTheater HD is a) the HDMI I/O and b) harping on about Dolby TrueHD & DTS-HD.

In my rig I also have an NVIDIA GTX 580 for graphics. It has an HDMI output on the back.

From what you are saying it sounds like my GTX 580 would be more than up to the task of outputting lPCM 7.1 channel digital surround sound over HDMI into my receiver right?

So is there no point in upgrading to the HomeTheater HD as my GTX 580 could handle audio over HDMI to my receiver or am I missing something key?

Sorry for the hijack of the thread btw - would be more than happy to start a new one if need be?

I used my 5850 to pipe out 5.1 PCM sound to my receiver and it worked great. Only problem was Windows 7 and CCC saw this HDMI connection as a second monitor (my Asys 24" monitor is connected via DVI to the 5850) so it played havok with my fps in games. If you disable the monitor in display settings it also disables the sound!

Thats why I resorted to using my XFI Xtreme Music and SPDIF connection to pump out Dolby Digital to my AV receiver. tbh I cant hear the difference between PCM and Dolby Digital.

EDIT: I dont like the look of this setup either: http://www.auzentech.com/site/images/connect1_hthd_sm.jpg surely having your graphic piped through a sound card will add lag?

 

[hughythomas]

Oddly enough I saw your thread Elrasho - was going to bring up the issue of loss of FPS in a bit!

I can only assume that in the case of the HomeTheater HD, as we are dealing with DVI/HDMI (ie Digital connections) there should be noticeable lag...

Although this is entirely speculation based on the idea that all digital signals require clock sync.